Revan vs Yoda Chum Post 2

THE DARK REVENANT

"I am Revan reborn. And before me you are nothing"




This post has been long overdue, and I am sorry for the lack of punctuality in posting it more than half a year late. Special thanks to Darthor for helping to format this.   

Some of the points you made, I feel, are not very relevant to the debate at hand. If you feel that I moved past parts of your post that were important, you may raise it in your response.

https://youtu.be/DfbIjVJSzTM?si=HV5rpxWLlAgmaq5G

STATS:

SECTION 1(a):

Durin wrote:
Your use of stats is not consistent with your arguments.  
You establish baseline connections to Yoda through stats, with Krayt and with Revan himself.  
Both tell us that:  
Yoda ~ Vong Krayt ~ Darth Revan  
(shared CL in Saga, nearly identical HP, Defense, Attack, and Damage stats across the board in Minis)  
At the same time, you’re going for something like:  
Yoda ~ Vong Krayt < XoXaan/Karness Muur ~ Ajunta Pall <<<<< Darth Revan < Darth Malak < …  
(this has other issues I’ll get to)  
This scaling is incompatible with the Saga and Miniatures statistics that you seem to be taking as fact in other parts of your argument. Both can’t be the case, so which is it?  
If you brush off the stats link, there goes your Yoda ~ Vong Krayt tie.  
you brush off the mega scaling, there goes your Vong Krayt <<<<<< Darth Revan tie.  
As it stands, your own arguments are bashing against each other.

:shades:

I don't have to brush off anything. My scaling methods provide a range for Revan's power level.
--- --- ---
SECTION 1(b):

Durin wrote:
And what of Darth Revan’s other, not-quite-Yoda-level stats?

The Force Unleashed Preview #3 (2007)

The source you cite is from a SAGA campaign guide released in 2007. In 2008, when the KOTORCG was released, they placed Revan at CL 20, also where Yoda is ranked. This is also consistent with the minis stats, which were also released around this period. This implies there must have been a process of review that took place at WotC when making the KOTORCG. While Darth Revan being in the realm of Yoda (CL 20) is a consistent pattern, the Darth Revan stat you cite isn't. Why would we consider an older position made by the same company in the same regard as their more recent and more consistent positions?

Spoiler:

Durin wrote:
Your idea seems to be that, because DR and Yoda have similar stats, if the stats included someone who scales well above DR in the system (Vitiate, for example), Vitiate would be rated well above either, with DR and Yoda’s parity remaining a fact in the system; either downscaling Yoda and Revan together to make room, or having Vitiate transcend the CL 20 class.

The parity SHOULD  remain a fact in the system (I will cover this later), and I do not think that Vitiate should transcend the CL 20 class, or Revan and Yoda will be moved down to keep Vitiate at the top, but rather, Vitiate will be given stats akin to Luke Skywalker in Dark Nest, who has a UTF of 29.

Durin wrote:
Historically though, that’s not how this kind of thing has gone.  
I’ll ask you to backtrack a bit to when the D6 system was the Star Wars roleplay system. The only exploration the game gave to Old Republic characters was through the Tales of the Jedi Companion, which only covered the first three series of TotJ… as such, the most powerful Sith it covered was Freedon Nadd.  
Freedon Nadd was very very powerful in that system. Indeed, just about the only character who was stronger than him was Palpatine, and even then, not by much.
___
Now, let’s fast forward to the switch to D20. Based on your theory, it would stand to reason that with the introduction of Nadd’s veritable superiors–Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos–to the RP system, they would benefit from Nadd’s favorable placement compared to Palpatine, and be well above either of them.  
Well… not quite.
___
Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos were granted their rightful superiority to Freedon Nadd. But, what’s this? Palpatine’s still at the top of the system, and his Jedi counterpart, Yoda, with him. It seems that when it came to choosing between…  
The (relative) integrity of the intra-era scaling  
The consistency with inter-era statistics of previous systems  
The placement of the film-era titans at the pinnacle of the system  
…it was the consistency with the inter-era statistics of systems that went, rather than either of the other two parameters.  
I wonder why this same process would not happen with Darth Revan, with DR taking the place of Freedon Nadd and the likes of Vitiate and SoR Revan taking the places of Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos.

This assumes that Freedon Nadd was lowered only because Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos are superior to him. An almost as likely situation is that SAGA lowered Freedon Nadd because they no longer believe he is as powerful as Yoda or Sidious and believe that only Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos meet the mark. Similarly, with Darth Revan, there was a process of review. Another problem with your reasoning is that Freedon Nadd has no consistent pattern for where he ranks, unlike Revan. Why does this matter? It makes no sense for a company to suddenly backtrack on a position they have consistently stood by only because there are people who are more powerful than Darth Revan.

Durin wrote:
Fortunately, we don’t have to wonder too much, as we do have a more recent system, from after the introduction of SWTOR, with stats for both Yoda and Darth Revan that we can test both our hypotheses against.

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-choking-mr-krabs-angry-spongebob-gif-8538354389161236037

Durin wrote:
I think my hypothesis wins.

:Malak:

No, not at all.

You cite the stats from Galactic files. Your hypothesis implies that for Darth Revan to be dropped, they would need to abide by the same systems and requirements that were used in WotC games, but that seems highly unlikely, seeing as the Galactic Files and SAGA were made by entirely different companies. What I'm getting at is that this isn't a continuation of SAGA but rather a position held by an entirely different entity that has no connection to your hypothesis.

Durin wrote:
Another thing that I find interesting with these statistics is how similar Darth Malgus’s stats are to those of Darth Revan.

(Same exact scores except Darth Malgus is at an advantage of 1 in Force Power and a disadvantage of 1 in Intelligence.)
___
At the very, very worst, FE Malgus is on par with post-Act III Hero of Tython. Yet, he’s treated as similar in skill to Darth Revan, who you argued to be far, far, far below the level of Act III Hero of Tython. Yet another instance of the stats disagreeing with your conclusions!

The disparity of 1 between the force power stat should be massive, lol. The force stat that Malgus has is also shared with beings like the Ones, who I think we can both agree are vastly superior to people like Malgus or Yoda. If you acknowledge fighting ability as skill, I don't see what the problem is. What I proposed was that the Hero should be far more powerful than Darth Revan, and would overwhelm him with augmentation, or TK. Anyways, for the reasons I provided earlier, this would not confirm your hypothesis.

What matters most is that you have 1, maybe 2, stat points that really oppose Darth Revan’s supremacy.

Spoiler:

Durin wrote:
While we’re on the topic, did you know that SWTOR itself has some stats?

No Way!

Durin wrote:
These should be much more reliable statements on characters’ combative prowess than those from dated, peripheral sources.
I would like it if you explained to me why either:  
We should ignore these gameplay stats straight from the source and relating more directly to the characters in question as reliable measurements while using the gameplay stats from dated, peripheral sources as the foundation of our scalings  
The SWTOR devs thinking Yoda would die to a rancor is a more likely situation than the Minis/Saga game designers thinking that Darth Revan isn’t oneshot fodder to SoR Revan

Vitiate and the Savage War Beast are not evaluated on the same basis since they have different levels, 50 vs. 55. The higher the level, the more challenging the developers need to make it to create a sense of progression. I would also like to add that the Savage War Beast is a flashpoint boss, which means it is intended to be fought by 4 - 8 players.
--- --- ---

THE JEDI EXILES:

Durin wrote:
Karness Muur, being preserved through the talisman, has no power on his own. He needs a host to be able to manifest any Force abilities.  

That is blatantly false, though. If we look at DT, Celeste Morne has to choose between "using the power of an ancient Sith to defeat a new one" or death, with Vader holding a saber to her throat. Vader is said to "feel" the power the talisman holds, and Muur furthers the point by telling Vader that he senses the power and he should take it.

Later in your post, you reference the idea that Vader is being manipulated by visions induced by Muur. That doesn't really follow, since that isn't suggested whatsoever in the text. Vader doesn't reject Muur because it is a farce, but rather because he acknowledges he will become a slave to him.

Spoiler:

Celeste Morne, backed into a corner, caves into using Karness Muur's power and realizes that she can use it without falling. Notice how she says that she doesn't have the "strength" to defeat Vader, but Muur does.



To survive as long as she has, Morne draws upon Muur's power.



Krayt comments on the fact that Morne is “tapping into” Muur's power as well. There is no differentiation between Karness Muur and the Muur talisman from how it is framed in Legacy and other sources. The first time Morne draws upon the talisman, Karness Muur shouts, "What have you done, woman? That is my power", as she uses it to turn everyone into Rakhagouls.

Spoiler:

Muur's power passing to Vader (explicitly stated) also results in a similar situation.




"Very good. My will raises your hand,” Daiman said. “My hand.”

“As my lord knows,” Uleeta said.

“I did not will you to speak.”

The woman went immediately silent. From behind, Daiman gripped her skull harder, growing frustrated. “No—it isn’t true. This isn’t real. I’m not the one raising your hand!”

Uleeta paused before speaking. “You have told me to, lord. I am doing it.”

“You do not exist in this. My will should activate your motion directly,” Daiman said, releasing his hold on her. “And look!” He grabbed the Woostian’s wrist. “A pulse. Your heart is beating!” Offended, he glared at her. “And you’re breathing! I’m not willing this. I should be in control!”

“I am sorry, Lord Daiman,” Uleeta said. “These things are autonomous—”

“There is no autonomy! Not unless I say so!”

The Woostoid aide burst into tears, hiding her face.

Kerra caught a flash of the woman’s emotions, still unshielded. True shame. Kerra shifted her weight on the rocks. The moment was horrific—and yet, spellbinding. The woman didn’t appear to have suffered physically, but she seemed to shrink as Daiman glared at her.

"It’s always the same,” he said, simmering. “I can animate still objects. I can persuade you to act. But I can’t act through you.” Daiman shoved his sobbing aide violently off the trunk and opened it. “I know this can work. I know it,” he said, rifling through the chest.

The woman spoke, weakly. “The holocrons tell of Karness Muur, an ancient Sith Lord who could enthrall entire populations, making them an extension of his will. He was even developing a method to move his own consciousness from one organic form into another.”

Daiman towered over the woman, crumpled on the floor. “It’s so obvious,” he raved. “Why else would I have planted such information in the past, if it weren’t the key to my escape from this—this prison?”

“Through victory, my chains are broken.”


Karness Muur could enthrall entire populations, making them an extension of his will, and what's that? He was developing a method to move his consciousness from one organic form into another. Muur has the same abilities as the talisman, and the talisman is only a tool for moving his consciousness from one body to another.

Legacy also has a similar idea of the talisman, saying that Karness Muur is responsible for creating the talisman to store his consciousness.

Durin wrote:
Muur is unable to do anything at all with a non-Force sensitive host, even though said host (the ambitious Mandalorian researcher Pulsipher) is actively trying to embrace the talisman’s latent abilities, instead abandoning Pulsipher for a less willing but slightly Force-sensitive host in Zayne Carrick.

:jack:

NFUs are incapable of manifesting force powers. It is quite literally impossible. Nowhere is it suggested that the talisman can give people midichlorians or something of that sort, so why would you expect Pulsipher to suddenly be able to draw out Muur's powers?

Durin wrote:
When one embraces Muur instead of resisting him, their power isn’t a sum of theirs and a portion of his… elsewise Muur could have manifested some of his power from the fully willing Pulsipher. Rather, it’s a multiplier, taking the inherent Force energies of the host and focusing it through Muur’s arcane knowledge and dark willpower.  
 
This is consistent with the way that other Sith taking on hosts is presented in other media – the raw power of the disciple giving a tangible medium for the parasitic spirit to use its practiced abilities.

:shades:

Nowhere in that passage does it confirm your theories. The passage from JA seems to suggest that Kun uses his power to amplify Kyp's, rather than saying Kun has no innate power and is using his mastery to amplify Kyp's powers.

Behind him Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt. Kyp felt larger, a part of the jungle moon, then a part of the entire planetary system, until he burrowed into the heart of the gas giant itself.

To me, this seems to suggest that Exar Kun has power of his own, as Kyp feels his power arise. Kun's power is what amplifies his abilities. Nowhere in this passage can I find something confirming the notion you presented earlier. As for your second passage, what are you getting at? It seems to suggest that Kun has power and influence of his own, as he attacks Luke with waves of darkness.

Durin wrote:
Not an extremely trustworthy source. And again, this is not Muur potentially killing Palpatine. This is Vader fully embracing Muur’s spirit potentially killing Palpatine. Two different things

Nowhere in the text does it say that (specifically DT). The idea is that the power Vader senses, the power the Talisman (Muur) offers, is what Vader feels to be greater than Sidious. Vader submits to a spirit Muur in the place of Sidious, implying that a full-power spirit Muur (the portion that he gives Vader + the remaining power he would use to dominate Vader) is greater than the Vader with the portion of the talisman.

If someone were to be fully conquered by Muur, their power would be directly attributed to a living Muur. It doesn't matter if Muur dominates Krayt or Maladi, as long as he dominates a host he can "truly live again"


- John Ostrander, CBR

Durin wrote:
Not an extremely trustworthy source. And again, this is not Muur potentially killing Palpatine. This is Vader fully embracing Muur’s spirit potentially killing Palpatine. Two different things.

Nowhere in the text does it say that (specifically DT). The idea is that the power Vader senses, the power the Talisman (Muur) offers, is what Vader feels to be greater than Sidious. Vader submits to a spirit Muur in the place of Sidious, implying that a full-power spirit Muur (the portion that he gives Vader + the remaining power he would use to dominate Vader) is greater than the Vader with the portion of the talisman.

If someone were to be fully conquered by Muur, their power would be directly attributed to a living Muur. It doesn't matter if Muur dominates Krayt or Maladi; as long as he dominates a host, he can "truly live again." Directly in DT, he says that Morne is an optimal host.



We see Muur try to call to Shadao Vao and Azlyn in Legacy.

Spoiler:

Durin wrote:
Bar his fledgling state at the beginning of creating the One Sith, this is Krayt at his very weakest. This is further into his deterioration than either of the stats placing him on par with Yoda are set, so there’s no parity between dying!Krayt and Yoda.
Bar his fledgling state at the beginning of creating the One Sith, this is Krayt at his very weakest.

Elaborate.

Durin wrote:
The release of the Krayt miniature predates the Vector arc of Legacy by about half a year. The Krayt shown in the stats cannot have been Krayt as we see him in Vector.  
Dying Krayt is so much weaker than usual that it would be a significant amount of time before he’s able to defeat Celeste Morne on her own.
the same series, it’s made explicit that Morne stands no chance against Dark Times Vader in a very immediate sense.

Morne has been using Karness Muur's power for centuries, ever since she first used it against Vader.




In Rebellion, we see Morne use Muur's powers by turning the troopers aboard the shuttle into Rakhagouls.

Spoiler:

From that point onwards, Celeste Morne has been using Karness Muur's powers to survive until Legacy and using Muur's to turn all of the people on an ISD into Rakhagouls.




Celeste Morne has been using Muur's power over the centuries and has even been using his power to extend her life. I don't see why she couldn't have grown over the many years drawing on Muur's reservoir of power. There is an obvious explanation for why Krayt isn't treated as more dominant than Vader since it is explicitly stated that Morne is drawing on Muur's power in their fight.



Funny enough, the portion of Muur's power that Morne draws out in DT is treated as something that would have killed Vader.

Durin wrote:
The release of the Krayt miniature predates the Vector arc of Legacy by about half a year. The Krayt shown in the stats cannot have been Krayt as we see him in Vector.

I'll concede that this stat point does not refer to the Krayt in Vector, but we can agree to use your interpretation of SAGA.

Durin wrote:
What suggests to you that the version of Krayt given stats in the Legacy Campaign Guide is the one at the very beginning of the One Sith, instead of, you know, the Krayt we see in Legacy?

The bottom of the stat block says that Krayt possesses the Vong eye, which is only seen in founding Krayt.




But in Legacy #1, it is clear that he has a different eye in place of the Vong implant.



I was giving you a very generous interpretation of his stats earlier on, but it seems you want me to reference Krayt's stat as the Krayt we see in Legacy. The Legacy Era Campaign Guide was released months after the issues of Vector had been published, so it should be referencing Vector Krayt in that instance.

Durin wrote:
Despite Krayt being brought to this level, Muur, with full control of Morne, needs to draw on Krayt’s own powers to find the raw energies necessary to defeat him, as well as having the additional, minor distraction of Azlyn Rae stabbing Krayt through the chest with a lightsaber.

Where does it say he "needs" to feed on Krayt's power, or where was it made urgent that he needed to do that? Maybe it's just a power flex—whatever Krayt dishes out at him doesn't matter because he can toss it right back. When Muur says, "I feed on your power and I make it my own" and blasts Krayt with lightning, he most likely discharged the power he fed on, which unless you think Ostrander is an idiot, meshes well with the quote.



After Azlyn stabs Krayt through the chest, we get a glimpse at Karness Muur, who has a suitable host that he can dominate. Muur does the most impressive display of power in Legacy by far. Ostrander says, "Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy." The definition of overpowering is "extremely strong or intense; overwhelming." Ostrander is emphasizing the blast more than anything else in the quote. He isn't saying that Muur has powers that "oushine" Krayt's because he defeats him, but because of the manner in which he does so—the huge force maelstorm.

Spoiler:

Durin wrote:
Of course that would be just about the most powerful Sith Lord we would see. It would essentially be Reborn Krayt with Muur’s mind… as you noted, Krayt accomplished his rebirth by using the same ability that Muur was going to use. It continues to say nothing about living!Muur’s power. That hasn’t existed in any form since his original death.  

As it was outlined earlier, Krayt can "truly live again" through any force user. Why settle for a weaker vessel when you have the strongest Sith of the time period right in front of you? A better vessel not only increases his applicable power but also allows him to fester and grow more powerful than he already is. Muur also targets more powerful force users since they are easier to control, and more willing to accept his power, especially darksiders. Muur is interested in Cade for this very reason.




Celeste Morne says Cade is Muur's type, and she finds it surprising that he hasn't fallen for his temptations.

Durin wrote:
The “truly live again” part is not because Muur would be restored to the same exact power level as while living. It is because his autonomy would be restored for the first time in millennia. He would have a willing Dark Side host, instead of the pesky Jedi who is constantly trying to subvert his goals.

That is exactly why he would be as powerful as his living state. So far, he has only existed as a spirit with a vessel that has been fighting him at every moment. Truly, in "truly live again," means to the fullest degree; genuinely or properly. For Muur to satisfy the definition, he would have to retain all of the elements he had millennia ago (within reason), which include power (which Ostrander brings up in the same quote, as you are aware of). Seeing as he has his own power as a spirit and any force user can be a suitable host, your arguments do not make sense.

Durin wrote:
Muur controlling Krayt would not be due to superior power, merely Krayt shaking hands with the devil and not having the desire to resist Muur’s temptations the way Morne could. And this is all per Muur, who also thought he could dominate Morne and Cade in the same way when he first grabbed onto them with the Talisman. Spoiler alert: it didn’t go his way.

Once Muur latches onto a host with his talisman, he is locked into a battle of wills with them. It would require Muur to exert some level of power to envelop someone else's mind and take control of someone's body. Muur uses "tricks" and further temptations to quicken the process of his will taking full control. Falling into these tricks is framed as lacking willpower and strength.




Ultimately, the power that comes from the talisman comes from Muur's mind and will.



In KOTOR, Muur attaches himself to Morne and begins the process of taking control.

Spoiler:

Morne then asks Zayne to cut her down, as Muur is on the verge of taking control of her body.



To prevent Muur from taking total control of Morne, she is placed inside Dreypa's Oubliette.



Muur is fully capable of dominating Morne; however, the oubliette threw a wrench into his plans. From DT onward, she has been able to resist Muur's control over her body. It is made clear that only Morne can be trusted to imprison Muur, no one else.



Until Cade Skywalker comes along. Seeing that he resists the temptations of the dark side and is not interested in Karness Muur's power, she allows herself to pass, saying that Zayne sent her help after all these years. Cade Skywalker is special and is the only other person who can be trusted with the talisman.

Spoiler: