Odan vs Hoth Final Post

The Final Meta

Preface:

I'd like to preface my final response by thanking Vaelias for this debate. It became a massive pain in the ass toward the end but I still think it was really enjoyable. Props for the debate. I'll try to make this post shorter so a lot of the points won't be responded to, those are not concessions, not every point are worth debating until the end.

I'll also be playing a little game called "Vaelias logic". It involves taking quotes hyperliterally and ignoring all context. These parts will be marked in red.

Anyways, let's get started:

I. ERA COMPARISONS:

A) General Jedi Supremacy:

I've provided several supremacy quotes for TOTJ stating that it is the Jedi order at the "summit of its powers", the Jedi order "in their prime" even "more so than in the Clone Wars" (KOTORCG). It is a time where the Jedi were "numerous and strong" (TOTJ Opening Crawls) and is noted as the "once powerful Jedi Order" (Nexus of Power Sourcebook). The potency of TOTJ doesn't just end there, however. The "period described in Tales of the Jedi" is one in which "violence was a frequent way of life" which leads to it being the era where "Jedi Weapon masters were most common". Jedi weapon masters are ones who "make fighting the central focus of their union with the force" and are "adepts of various styles of melee combat" (POTJ Sourcebook). They are also the "greatest of the Jedi warriors" (KOTOR II). If you actually think about it, this makes absolute sense. TOTJ is an era where different masters are allocated to different systems and acts as watchmen. They frequently have to deal with insurgence and to keep the system safe. When an interviewer compares the prequel trilogy to the comic, Veitch agreed, adding that it will be "the Jedi in their prime" (Galaxy Magazine #8).
On top of this impressive combative superiority, they are also the Jedi at their most knowledgeable, the "Golden Age of the Jedi" (POTJ Sourcebook) where the masters would "meditate together on the force each day" (Tales of the Jedi).

According to Dark Empire, the “Ancient Jedi” were the Jedi “in the prime of their existence” (Dark Empire II):

Spoiler:

To summarize, there is a wealth of evidence suggesting the TOTJ Jedi were amongst the most powerful in history, be it combatively or in terms of understanding the deepest stratas of the force. Let's address the arguments in opposition:

Vaelias said:
It's not irrelevant when that power is the power the Jedi use, and that's the power in the thought bomb, and thats the power Lord Hoth is the center of

The problem here is that both Odan and Hoth are Jedi, and if the Jedi makes up the "Jedi fires" of the galaxy, then that's consistent for both TOTJ Jedi and NSW Jedi. There's no reason to bring this up at all.
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Vaelias said:
Sure if ya take it at face value, but we have discussed these concepts right, and you have these little 'islands' of light side power, an there's a Jedi Lord for each one raised as the King from a line of force users, would you disagree that these Jedi Lords are the heart of their island of power that they created ? would you disagree that when these mini islands come together they form one giant island of power? this is stuff we can logically deduce from simply knowing the concepts that exist in the universe an then seeing if and where people fit into the concepts, I cant think of a better example of a web of light side power than these little islands of hope and peace, tell me Darthor, if you look past the blanket statement, how do you think that is working if not through Force Threads, are they Yuuzhan Vong devoid of the force or something???

That's a stretch. Nowhere in the quote you provided stated that the Jedi controls "islands of light side power", but rather that they control territories and act as regional barrons:

These “Jedi Lords” began their careers as knights on quests to defend abandoned worlds from slavery and exploitation. Gradually they came to hold political authority over systems and entire sectors, and became hereditary barons and kings. The Jedi domains were islands of peace and justice, where honorable rulers fought to keep the Sith at bay, attracted other brave Jedi to their banners, and sired sons and daughters who followed their parents in the way of the Force. Eventually, even the office of Supreme Chancellor and the rule of Coruscant itself were ceded to a line of Jedi Masters.

In fact, your own quote states they hold "political authority over systems and entire sectors", so when you cite the "islands of power", those islands are not metaphysical islands of lightside power, but rather political domains controlled by the Jedi. So this entire argument is just another hyper-literal reading of a very obvious quote*.

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 1
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Vaelias said:
Why would they not be trained one on one and groomed ? they are hereditary barons and kings, and ya know how you posted this quote
Why would it be any different for the 1000 years of Jedi barons and kings and their breeding a hereditary Jedi lineage ?

The basis of the Sith quote is that they underwent genetic progression where each generation gradually comes closer to having the "perfect genes" and become superior to the last. You have provided no evidence that the training methods of the Jedi progressed and improved, and in fact, given that you yourself provided quotes that the Jedi's training methods didn't improve given that you provided a quote stating "The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war" (ROTSAN). Just because the Jedi lords were groomed from birth (as are virtually all Jedi) doesn't mean they improved from their ancestors, that's a baseless assertion*.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 1
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Vaelias said:
Burning fires of the Jedi on the living force? I think you are misunderstanding, I presented the evidence in my opener you'd need to debunk that before you declare I failed to prove it, but the point there is, the Jedi are fed by the Jedi presence which is very much relevant to the debate seeing as I am talking about power mechanics here
This is all relevant to the debate because my argument is that Hoth's power is the Jedi Fire that's in the Valley of the Jedi, and he is keeper of the power, now I don't think Hoth can give the combative output of the entire Army of Light by himself, that is not what I claimed at all, but he holds all that power, again how exactly is this 'completely irrelevant' to the debate?

This is actually a point in favor of TOTJ, as it is even moreso of an era where the light side was completely dominant and the dark side was nothing but an echo. The dark side was a "faint memory" (TOTJ Omnibus) or an "insubstantial shadow" (Dark Empire Endnotes) during TOTJ. Given that the light side was completely dominant during Odan Urr's year, he would benefit further from a galactic light side nexus, similar to the one created by the PT Jedi order:

In a sense, the Jedi Order had done the same on a galactic scale, Plagueis believed, by bathing the galaxy in the energy of the light side of the Force; or more accurately by fashioning a Force bubble that had prevented infiltration by the dark side, until Tenebrous’s Master had succeeded in bursting the bubble, or at least shrinking it.

The dominance of the Jedi over the Sith or vice versa is reflected from the swaying of the force on a galactic scale. Odan lives in an era where the Jedi are completely dominant, creating a "force bubble", the Sith are extinct bar false cult members, and the Jedi order is at its prime. Hoth lives in an era where the brotherhood of the Sith is at least as powerful as the Jedi and the force is not swayed toward any particular side. Any comparisons between the power of the Jedi flames will only result in TOTJ being stronger.
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Vaelias said:
FFG operates under the same rules as something like Relaunched Fact File, they have both EU and new canon content, whats legends is legends whats canon is canon, but whatever that was just a cool tidbit on the philosophy I thought was nice.
Yeah I know the Jedi are all going against the code the last war has forced them to change, I didn't say the dark side ways have seeped into the Code lol, rather its seeping into them individually, just a side effect of all these conflicts and a side effect which the Jedi actually can make use of, we see the same thing in the PT, the dark side growing inside them, again this was all outlined clearly in the opener, seems you misunderstood

Not true, Endless Vigil is an exclusively canon source published under disney, so it's different from relaunched fact files. Moreover, the fact that the Jedi teachings followed during NSW are still Odan's version of the Jedi code also means that your philosophical argument on how the entire NSW order use passion is false. You also fail to respond to my argument on Morrit Ch'gally's philosophy being fashioned after Hoth's death*.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 1
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Vaelias said:
Yeah I never claimed the PT wasn't better, but I think its the growing dark side in the Jedi which ultimately makes up the biggest combat difference, and these powerhouses of the New Sith Wars seem have the most dark side corruption of any Order of Jedi in history, so while i'm not claiming they are with the PT, I think its a nod to just how strong these guys will be, funny also how you use that quote about a millennia of combat evolution but seem to be against the Idea that it happened during the NSW, despite the conditions for growth being far higher, do tell me, why would it be any different for NSW?

You provided a quote that states the PT Jedi are still as strong as the NSW Jedi, and you even tried to hammer the quote in by citing Durge. Now that you've been called out on it, you go back on the original claim and say NSW Jedi are inferior after all? Concession accepted*.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 1

As for why the NSW Jedi wouldn't grow? That's probably because they're busy getting killed in the New Sith War, hence the name of the era. But why does that matter? The NSW order growing from... the handful of survivors from the aftermath of SWTOR? Why is that relevant?
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Vaelias Said:
Postdates what quotes mentioned ? the G-Canon ones? well, that doesn't matter since they are G-Canon and would in fact simply retcon the TCW Jedi mention in the TOTJ/KOTOR quote. And I don't think the Jedi in NSW would be considered prime anyway, I wouldn't expect a quote like that for them, the Jedi have lost a lot of their control of the galaxy, Sith occupy half of it youve got crime and all sorta at an all time high, Jedi being corrupted by the Dark Side, it is literally the Dark Ages, I would not expect a prime golden age quote or anything of that sort for these Darkened mislead Jedi of the NSW, its a damaged order that's fallen apart, are most certainly not the monks following the will of the force they are meant to be, like in the Prequels and TOTJ, and so I think to take those quotes as a blanket statement about Force power isn't the right way to go about reading those quotes, there's too many factors in "Prime of the Jedi" to even consider using those quotes for specifically force power reasons when unity, influence, political power, harmony with the force and factors that contributed to the decline of the Jedi Order come into play, such as complacency, corruption, and the influence of the dark side. which had a negative impact on the effectiveness of the order, despite their continued strength in the Force. not to mention issues pertaining specifically to the NSW Jedi such as the recruitment of barely force sensitives and children into their armed forces, of course these guys arent the prime of the Jedi, but that doesn't preclude the NSW Jedi having more force power or better combatants, there is just too much there for those quotes to 'destroy the NSW wank' as for that one quote about them being at the summit of their power, I don't see why that would bind any future eras, it talks about the Jedi's progression an their story in general an says now its at the summit of its power, an that's why they have so much self confidence, they are better than ever I don't deny that

A lot to dissect here. Firstly, TOTJ wank doesn't retcon G-canon PT supremacy quotes, but it retcons the non-existent NSW supremacy quotes. In fact, TOTJ > PT isn't even a part of my argument, and I even made a graph to illustrate this (link). PT and TOTJ are both high, Bane era is low. Once again you attack a strawman of my case*.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENTS COUNTER: 2

Secondly, while it is true that the TOTJ supremacy quotes might not be combatively applicable on paper, if you look into their surrounding context is becomes incredibly clear they are. They are the "Jedi in their prime" because they "do battle with the evil Sith, and defend the galaxy against Mandalorian Hordes" (KOTORCG). The TOTJ are the Jedi at the summit of their power because they "face not only fanatical soldiers and skilled warriors but also their own comrades" (KOTORCG). TOTJ had the greatest quantity of weapon masters because "violence was a frequent way of life" (POTJ Sourcebook). All 3 quotes are specifically discussing the Jedi order in a combative context.

Thirdly, I find it a bit dishonest for you to argue the summit quote isn't intended to bind future eras. The quote is written from an OOU perspective and doesn't follow any specific chronology, and given the first quote the source clearly considers other eras when it's created, so this response is baseless*.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 2
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Everything else in this section are pretty pointless back and forth on specific semantics, I think it's clear that what Vaelias offered is not nearly enough to undermine the wealth of evidence in favor of TOTJ.

B): Ancients vs Brotherhood:

Vaelias said:
Murhhh the good old days are gone, all these quotes are just Bane fanboying over the ancients, he thinks everyone in the Brotherhood are sorry excuses for Sith because they operate in a way which is not ideal for the Dark Side to function, too many lords all this equality, he thinks they are all Idiots blindly following Kaan and thus not worthy of the ancients legacy or teachings, they threw them out, rejected them and have a completely opposing philosophy after all.
Bane's opinion based on teachings he received from Revan's Holocron, bunch of lost rituals and philosophy that Bane is has never seen before an he is like waaaa, has no baring on force power,
Again Bane's opinion, the new sith fell from the true path blah blah, which yeah isn't really incorrect here, but idk why the ancients WOULD favour the New Sith having vastly changed their philosophy/approach to things, so no no one is worthy of their power, just a side note here, X not being worthy of Ys power does not necessitate Y's power being greater anyway, X could be more powerful, but not be worthy of Y's power because he follows a different philosophy than Y does, and not worthy of that Legacy, take for example Yoda, he is more powerful than all the Ancient Sith (you've seen all the quotes not gonna post em here) but would still not be considered worthy of the Sith Legacy, he's a fucking Jedi with none of the same beliefs etc. same goes for Kaan, he was trying to turn the Sith into the Jedi Order, trying to hold it all together like Yoda, a flawed philosophy for the dark side, because it is selfish, the spirits do not agree with it, Bane does not agree with it. It was a flawed solution to the Sith paradox
Yeah Bane is opposed to the current order, thinks they are all dumb, blind etc
Yep BoD dumb lol, does not conflict with what I am claiming …
There are too many Sith Lords in the Brotherhood,” he went on. “Too many who are weak in the dark side. Yep terrible conditions for power to flow properly, the power is diluted with many Sith

So essentially your responses boil down to Bane disagreeing with BoD's philosophy which is why he simps and cucks to the Ancients instead? There's multiple general issues with this, foremost among which is the fact that Bane completely disagrees with the Ancient's philosophy, yet still considers them incredibly powerful:

“The strength of numbers was a trap … one that had snared all the great Sith Lords who had come before. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan: each had been powerful.”


This theory also wouldn't work considering that Bane is a Sith who only values power, there's no reason for him to appreciate the glory of the Ancient Sith for any reasons other than power. So when quotes like these exist:

"I’m sorry for abandoning you," he said softly. "I was blinded by dreams of past glory. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan-I lusted after the power of the great Dark Lords of the past."
...
“To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy’s entire archives.”

That doesn't seem consistent with the notion that they are all sub-Sirak. But anyways, let's move on. You say that Bane only says they are weak because he disagrees with their philosophy, but notice the stark contrast between his depiction of them and the Ancients. Bane thinks the Ancients were unwise and were snared by the traps of numbers, yet still acknowledges them as powerful beings whose teachings far surpass the academy. Meanwhile he calls the brotherhood "weak and inferior", “weak”, “simpering lords”, “an abomination”, “disgusting”, “sickly assemblage of mewling sycophants”, who are “not deserving of the Ancient’s power and wisdom” and “the true potency of the Dark Side”. There's a large gap of depiction there and it's completely dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Bane also noted that the Ancients have access to the "full potential of the dark side", meaning that they can use the entirety of the force. Clearly they are superior to the Brotherhood

But anyways, it's not just Bane. Here's a bunch of other characters appreciating the knowledge and power of the ancients:

Here's Dooku stating that Andeddu is a "true Sith" and thus superior to secondary Sith like Vos:



Here's Obi Wan stating the dangers of the Sith, in this case specifically Darth Maul, "regaining" the power stored inside King Adas' holocron:

Of course Anakin had not seen the power of the dark side the way that Obi-Wan had. He had not witnessed his Master being cut down by a Sith Lord. He had not been nearly killed himself. After such a close experience Obi-Wan was well aware of the threat the Sith posed if they regained all of their ancient power. And recapturing the knowledge contained in a Sith Holocron would be a large step in that direction. It could be devastating for the entire galaxy.

Here's Plagueis appreciating the Ancient's ability to prolong their life, concluding they might be genuinely more powerful than he is:

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Here is Sidious discussing Naga Sadow's knowledge:

One of the most powerful Sith alchemists was Naga Sadow, who left detailed records of his work within a Sith Holocron I came across some years ago.
[...]
“Ah, but Naga Sadow was too generous with his knowledge. Far more generous than I. Also, despite his powers, he was ultimately undone by his own impatience to expand the Sith Empire. After his death, Sadow’s secrets were gained by Freedon Nadd, who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because none of them came to a glorious end, I think it’s best that I guard Sadow’s teachings a bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of Monsters.”

Darth Krayt still considers Xoxaan his master after finding the One Sith:




There's a lot of these littered all through-out Star Wars. There exists an incomprehensible gap between the Brotherhood and the Ancients. Bane disagrees with both but considers the Ancients supreme while he constantly shits on the brotherhood. The entire narrative of the Bane trilogy is him trying to look for scraps of knowledge from the Ancients, like Revan's holocron which far surpasses everything else he learned in the brotherhood, or Nadd's holocron which will take him months, maybe years to learn. But it's not just Bane, Sidious, Plagueis, Krayt, Dooku and Maul have all emphasized the power and knowledge of the Ancients. According to you, "Bane is astronomically more powerful than Lord Hoth", so he should logically be able to one-shot the Ancients. Why then are the Ancient's power so emphasized by people who benefits from a thousand years of power progression after Bane?

Why do Sidious and Plagueis care about the power of sub-Sirak beings who they can kill with a thought?
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C) New Ancient Sith Arguments:

I talk a lot about major Sith Lords, but what about the average Sith during the Great Hyperspace War that Odan fights? Let's examine them:

Here's a random Sith Captain named Saes Rrogan using force lightning before a Jedi Master can react and severing his arms in the subsequent duel:

“Your skill with a lightsaber remains wanting," Relin said, advancing. "You rely on strength over technique."    Anger tensed Saes's body, darkened his visible skin from crimson to deep red. "It is well, then, that I've learned other methods."    Blue Force lightning gathered on the black claws of his fingertips, crackled a dire promise. Before Relin could respond, Saes gestured and the energy cut a jagged path across the room.    Relin dodged too late and the energy struck him, put a cold spike into his heart, and threw him against the far wall. Despite the agony, he managed to use the Force to cushion the impact and fell to the floor, his breathing ragged as the last of the lightning crawled over him and expired.    He climbed to his feet, lightsaber held low, and eyed Saes. His Padawan had grown in the Force since they had parted.

As if reading his thoughts, Saes saluted him with his lightsaber. Relin imagined him grinning behind his mask. "More than you know, even."    The pitch of the hyperdrive's hum changed, accelerated, took on the regular cadence of a rapidly beating heart. Relin felt the vaguely nauseating swirl in his stomach that he often felt when a ship was about to enter hyperspace.    Staring at Saes, he decided that he would not bother with escape. He had accomplished his mission. Now he would right a wrong before he died.    He fell into the Force, let its energy course through his body, enhance his reflexes, his strength, his endurance. Saes answered Relin's stare with his own, his eyes black holes in the white mask, and lightning sizzled on his fingertips, tracing a spiral path up the red blade of his lightsaber.    "We end it," Relin said.    Former Master and Padawan strode across the chamber toward each other, lethal purpose in both their minds.    Relin's comlink crackled. "I am hit! Master!

“Drev's alarmed voice eroded Relin's resolve, carried away the anger that had been driving his thinking. Strength went out of him.    Saes, sensing the hesitation, bounded forward, lightsaber raised in a killing stroke. Relin parried but too slowly. Saes's blade severed Relin's left arm at the elbow.    Blinding pain exploded in Relin's mind; a scream broke through the wall of his gritted teeth. He felt himself fall, but as if from a distance. The world seemed to slow. His senses felt attenuated, all except for the throbbing, acute agony of his arm. His heart kept time with the pulse of the hyperdrive, and each beat sent a knife stab of pain up his bicep.    Saes loomed over him, his lightsaber sizzling, the masked embodiment of Relin's failure.”


Here's the same Sith Lord holding together a massive dreadnaught moving through time, the dreadnaught being capable of carrying hundreds of fighters:

“Grunting, Saes took mental hold of the dreadnought, the pieces of it floating in its wake. His mental fingers closed over the hull and reinforced it, then righted the ship's course.
  As he exerted himself, the loose Lignan ore on the deck flared red, sizzled, and crumbled to dust. Apparently it could offer only so much before burning out. He burned through it like a wildfire through brush, like the mining cruisers through the crust of Phaegon III's moon.
   He gritted his teeth, his entire body shaking with the challenge of keeping the ship intact. The effort squeezed more Force lightning from his hands, his eyes, his entire body, and soon he was sheathed in a swirling cyclone of the energy. He roared as his power alone kept the ship from shattering.
   More and more Lignan burned out around him until he stood in a field of dull gray rock, miniatures of Phaegon III's moon. His heart pounded against his ribs, gonged in his ears. Corded veins and sinew made a topographic map of the exposed flesh of his forearms. The strain bore down on him, drove him to his knees. He was failing. He had to pull the[…]”
“    Exhausted, he sagged fully to the ground, his breath ragged but his mind exultant.
   "Sir?" said one of the Massassi.
   Saes inhaled and stood on wobbly legs. The Massassi moved to assist him but he waved them off. He gathered himself and walked across the cargo hold to a viewport.
Outside, he saw the calm of realspace, a distant blue planet, an orange sun. The stars in the background of space did not look familiar to him, though. He did not know where in the universe they were, but he knew he had saved the ship. The power of the dark side had saved the ship.”

“In moments hundreds of cylindrical pods streaked out of Harbinger's launching bay, and hundreds more flew from her sister ship, Omen, all of them streaking across the viewscreen. They hit the atmosphere and spat lines of fire as they descended. The sight reminded Saes of a pyrotechnic display.”



And yes, he was amped by Lignan crystals, but it should be noted that "the power of the dark side had saved the ship", and that even with the lignan crystals Saes was terrified of Sadow. The fact that he is using "the power of the dark side" also means he's using the entirety of the DS, meaning Sadow scales significantly beyond the DS itself.

Anyways, Rrogan didn't dare challenge Shar Dakhon, who isn't even on the Sith Council:

“  The flesh under the rind of the moon's crust-the Lignan they were mining-would ensure a Sith victory in the battle for Kirrek and improve Saes's place in the Sith hierarchy. He would not challenge Shar Dakhon immediately, of course. He was still too new to the Sith Order for that. But he would not wait overlong.    Evil roots in unbridled ambition, Relin had told him once.”

There's a lot more I can bring up, like vastly post-prime Yaru Korsin fighting groups of warriors and can shatter his bridge chair against a marble column without using the force. How powerful are they? Powerful enough to handle Ludo Kressh's pedicure!

“Readers of the Knights of the Old Republic comics may see the very small Easter egg hidden here: the pedicure kit for Ludo Kressh handled by Gryph in KOTOR #29 was originally used by Seelah Korsin!”
Credits to Jake
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All of my points here stand. Aside from a couple of baseless bullshits, Vaelias has done nothing other than conceding his own arguments and ignoring mine. Odan is the Yoda of TOTJ who drove the Sith to extinction, that's very good reasons to vote for him on paper.

II. THE EMBODIMENT OF FAILURES

A) Lord Hoth's Limitations:

I cited two instances of Lord Hoth failing to deal with groups of Sith despite having the support of his army. I argued that this place a hard cap on his powers proving he doesn't have the combative prowess of the entirety of the army of light. To remind you of the passages:

Spoiler:

Vaelias said:
Well he didn't strictly fail to defeat an ambush team, he just didn't reach Pernicar in time, Pernicar "vanished beneath the sea of enemies" and Hoth went darting towards him in an unstoppable rage, but it was too late, he already vanished into the sea of enemies, I wouldn't exactly say It puts a HARD CAP on Hoth's power, since the Jedi are all pretty much fighting with what little they have left at this point weary weathered and worn from none stop battle, so he is not actually in any fit physical condition to be operating at his absolute peak for this to put a cap on his power, not to mention the conditions of the Force at the time, most of the Jedi being dead, Hoth is definitely not operating at his absolute best here, in fact the Jedi are described as half dead remains of Jedi at this point lol they have fought seven battles and are pretty much on deaths door lol

He didn't lose no, but I posted evidence saying he will lose if he keeps fighting and that he was saved by Farfalla, so you're ignoring my argument*. Here's the quote again in case you forgot:

“Yet he knew it wasn’t trackers they had to worry about. He cast out with the Force, trying to sense hidden enemies lying in wait in the trees ahead. Nothing. Of course if there were any Sith, they would be projecting false images to conceal themselves for their—
“Ambush!” one of the points screamed, and then the Sith were upon them. They came from everywhere: warriors wielding lightsabers, soldiers armed with blasters and vibroblades. The clash of durasteel and the hiss of crossing energy blades mingled with the screams of the living and the dying: screams of rage and triumph; of agony and despair.
A volley of blasterfire ripped through his lines, taking down those Padawans too inexperienced to deflect the shots. A second volley tore through the melee. The bolts ricocheted wildly as Sith and Jedi alike batted them aside, doing little real harm but adding to the chaos. Lord Hoth stood in the thickest of the fighting, hewing down foes foolish enough to come in range of his fierce weapon. His nostrils were filled with the greasy-sweet stench of charred flesh, and a wall of bodies was mounting around him. And still they kept coming, swarming over him like carrion beetles on a fresh kill, seeking to drag him down by sheer numbers.
Pernicar vanished beneath the sea of enemies, and Hoth redoubled his efforts to reach his fallen friend. He was unstoppable in his fury, like the devastating storms of the Maw itself. When he reached him, Pernicar was already dead. Just as the rest of them soon would be.”

Hoth explicitly says that the rest of them would be dead "soon", so while he didn't lose yet, this is a hard cap on his powers.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 2

You also raise the argument that the Jedi's conditions are bad, but I'm sure the Sith's are better:

“As she made her way down the ship’s exit ramp, Githany was quick to understand why their presence had been so urgently requested. Beyond the assemblage of Dark Lords the rest of the camp spread out to the limits of her vision, and all she could see was a picture of grim despair. Ragged, ramshackle tents arranged in tight rings of five housed the bulk of the army: cloth domiciles stained and torn by wind and rain. Scattered among them were repulsorcraft, heavy turrets, and other instruments of war. The equipment was caked with dried mud and spots of rust, as if efforts to keep it properly maintained had been abandoned.

The troops were spread out in small pockets, huddled around cook fires built in the circles of tents. Their uniforms were covered in dust and grime; many wore dirty bandages over wounds they had given up all hope of keeping clean or sterile. Their faces were all scarred by the bitter taste of far too many defeats at the hands of their enemy, and it was the hopelessness of their expressions that made the greatest impression.”

Ah Cool. So while the Jedi's conditions were shit, the Sith's were arguably worse. Haha.

Vaelias wrote:
Does this sound like Hoth at his very best? and he is still unstoppable akin to the maw, they only went and gave him a comparison to the strongest thing in the galaxy, the only thing that can hold Celestial power, were as Odan says himself he is but a scholar, Odan Urr is not at all somebody who would get a comparison like that, Its like putting Einstein in the ring with Mike Tyson, something tells me Einstein isn't going to win that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simile*

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 2
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Vaelias wrote:
As I mentioned above, Hoth is a character who walks a very fine line between light and dark, his rage isn't something that needs to be triggered, his base state is on the thin line to begin with, obvs when he wants to save his mate his efforts will no doubt he greater than his regular efforts, but I think if he is 1v1ing Odan Urr and his life etc is in danger then he won't just be holding back, besides the Hoth I am arguing for isn't a Hoth that will be holding back.

His rage might not need to be triggered (citation needed*) but the extent of his rage isn't constant. And seeing Pernicar, "his longtime friend and right hand during this never-ending campaign” being murdered would trigger a level of rage beyond anything that can get triggered in a typical confrontation. His rage is entirely circumstantial.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 3
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Vaelias wrote:
I don't believe I said it was split into 3, there a many different baronies that united into the Army idk where you got 3 from, and if you kept reading the same page It literally says there is about 12 Jedi with Hoth, so Id say your calculations are incorrect there, not to mention derived from something I didnt even say.

You neglect to read the very next line of your quote*: "A moment later the swoops landed to cheers from the dozen or so Jedi still standing. Lord Valenthyne Farfalla, looking as fastidiously proper as ever, dismounted and bowed low before his general". You neglect the many combatants who were killed in the fight. As Githany reported "Three more Masters, six Jedi Knights, a handful of Padawans … all dead!”.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 1
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Vaelias wrote:
Yeah there's a sea of enemies they are outnumbered they r all on deaths door they need some reinforcements, I don't think any of this actually has anything to do with my claim From this we can gauge the true extent of Lord Hoth’s power, which is that while rage amped blood lusted and with the help of ⅓ of the army of light he will still definitely lose to an ambush. This is not the exent of his power, because 1) power doesn't just manifest fully in combat, 2) Hoth has just fought 7 battles and is next to deaths door. And yeah him losing to an ambush isn't some sort of crazy Anti-Feat, I think somebody like Dooku or Yoda would almost certainly die here as well, especially under these conditions, we see Dooku lose to 30 pirates, and that's in the episode as a message to convey this idea, ,Jedi aren't DBZ characters, and numbers is the most effective thing against a Jedi, which we clearly see in AOTC, Hoth cant block in 100 places at once no matter how strong he is, a sea of enemies surrounding him, anybody would die without reinforcements here, its crazy that he is even alive here lol.

Yes but you are the one who asserted that Lord Hoth would be operating with the power of the entirety of the army of light, nobody ever said that for Dooku. You did just concede your entire case though*, because you accidentally admitted that his "cosmic powers" from the army of light isn't combatively applicable, which means it's meaningless in this debate. Concession accepted

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 2
-

Vaelias wrote
Oh really
the Dark Army was woefully small. Less than two thousand Jedi compared to ten times that number that had followed Kaan into the first few battles. Still, small though they were in number, these were the smartest, strongest, and most powerful of the lot, for the rest were dead, having been overpowered by Hoth and the Army of Light. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Once again all you needed to do was read the very next line*. "Still, small though they were in number, these were the smartest, strongest, and most powerful of the lot, for the rest were dead". They were the strongest of the ones who are still alive, not that they are stronger than the ones who died. You also neglect to respond to my point that the most powerful and named commanders of his in the army were factually already killed**.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 2

**IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 3
---

The arguments stand. You've taken a bunch of quotes out of context (when the context is the very next line) and accidentally conceded your case. Good debating Vaelias

B) All the Jedi Rey Hoth

1. Is this power combatively applicable

Vaelias wrote:
Ok before we start here on this part, Hoth being the embodiment of the Army of Light's power, much like how we see it with Yoda etc, does not mean that power is all combatively applicable, I said Hoth holds the power of the Army of Light but I did not claim that him alone has the combative potency of the entire Army, and he can solo the Sith, lol as in Hoth isn't gonna unleash that power in a massive death wave that kills everything, that's not how the force functions you can hold power but it doesn't manifest through combat like DBZ lol, Anakin is the embodiment of the Force but he cant one shot the force or anything like that lol, so I can see you are misunderstanding the power functions from the get go here

Ok so to start with, you literally just conceded your entire argument*. I want to make something really clear here: This is a debate about who would win in a fight, not about who has more arbitrary units of cosmic powers. If Hoth's cosmic powers are not combatively applicable, then it's irrelevant in this debate.. We only care about power that is combatively applicable. Hoth can have infinite cosmic powers but if he has the combatively applicable potency of a toddler then he's relative with a toddler from a scaling perspective.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 3
---

That ends this entire argument, but let's move on

2. Do these links exist:

To be clear, arguing that Hoth is the literal embodiment of the Jedi is completely different from proving that there are force bonds/links between him and the other Jedi. You need to prove he is the literal center of their power, all of their powers culminating with him. These are different concepts and you move the goalpost a lot in your posts trying to mix up the concepts to reduce your burden of proof.

Vaelias wrote:
And as I showed you in my opener the concept I discussed is a very real concept in Shamanism the core system in which the Force In Star Wars is based.

Seems like a stretch. Star Wars follow Shamunism because there is a central energy of life that binds all beings (i.e. the force). That was never in dispute. You needed to prove there's a figure, a person, who's in the center of that tapestry. In fact that concept directly contradicts Shamunism*, which argues the energy is shared by the community and not culminating with a single person. This concept is also in Star Wars, where Luke realized in Dark Empire endnotes that the source of power is for "belonging to all" and not for a single person.

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 3
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Vaelias wrote:
to make it more clear you have Hoth's individual spirit and all the spirits of the Jedi, imagine a tapastry with Hoth in the centre, where all the paths cross, so when I say Hoth's spirit is all the Jedi fire it's that which is dying off, It's not Hoth's individual spirit that is dying in case you misunderstood that, but that should be a given anyways. Hoth says every Jedi death is a pain in his chest, so it doesn't seem like its about just built up stress, he isn't just getting more and more depressed when he feels Jedi die through the Force, he is actually FEELING it, in his chest, which is where the spirits vital gate is, while I don't doubt there is a mental toll on Hoth during the war, that's not the only factor here, something is missing from him with each death, hence why he is dying with every Jedi not just getting more sad, I don't know how you could come to that conclusion tbh. " a notion that isn’t supported ANYWHERE in the story" -Darthor

I think there's a large discrepancy between what can be true and what is true. On a semantical level, that quote can be used to support your theory, but is that what the quote is saying? I guess a good thought experiment here is asking yourself, what would a complete normie think reading the text? And I think the fact that you need to find elaborate connections between different sources, even from a cancelled novel in Heart of the Jedi in order to affirm this theory tells you enough. The theories and arguments that are proposed should be arguments that can be supported from the quotes themselves. The most obvious interpretation is most likely the most correct one, because it's the most visible and that's one of the considerations LFL take into consideration (link).
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Vaelias wrote:
Yeah but the Lakers spirits aren't actually a real thing and they aren't made up of Jedi Fire that can be killed off, their emotions aren't the energies they wield, even if you wanna incorrectly take it in a figurative sense it doesn't do anything for you because being low in spirit in a figurative sense, in Star Wars where your emotions translate to power would still just translate in Force rules to being low in spirit literally.

Once again you neglect my argument*. The point isn't whether or not Laker spirits are real, but the fact that broken spirits is a figure of speech and not necessarily something to be taken seriously. And the fact that it can be taken seriously doesn't mean it is created to be literal**.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 4

**HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 4
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Vaelias wrote:
Sure its not exactly the same wording but it doesnt mean it's not speaking to the samce concept besides, the main point is, you are still getting the depiction of these two be all end of figures of each side we get THE LORD OF DARKNESS And THE DEFENDER OF LIGHT, coming face to face, and its that that is the focus here, they are the two main figures, even if Defender of the Light is different from Avatar of Light, Look at "Lord of Darkness" It still very much gives the same implication as Avatar, and we know Hoth is the Light Side Kaan basically, so I think when you add that to the idea that these are both THE two guys representative of both sides, Defender of the Light here is meant to be just a flip side of Lord of Darkness. He defends it because he is THE Master of it, its Avatar, while its not worded exactly the same that doesn't mean it doesn't mean the same thing

???

The red part is completely baseless*.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 4

In Tales of the Jedi Companion, Chamma and his fellow Jedi knight task force was noted to be the "the guardians of light" (link). Chamma would then experience centuries of growth until he becomes the Jedi Master and is thus bound below Odan per the Yoda quote. Under Vaelias logic, Odan will scale significantly above an avatar of light. :iwin:
-

Vaelias wrote:
its not like defender and avatar are mutually exclusive add that to how the force connections work, and there's no doubt that ROTS and DFJK are going off the same concept here. Furthermore you get comments like this

"You're right, old friend," he said. The words were smooth and easy; he spoke as if a great weight had been lifted from him. He radiated confidence and strength. He seemed to glow with a violet aura, as if he were the very embodiment of the dark side. And suddenly, inexplicably, Kopecz was reassured -Path of Destruction

Based on what*? The fact that both text says "the"?? Classic Vaelias logic.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 5

You can't make random connections between these completely different sources to support some elaborate story. I'd be willing to support this theory if the wording are the exact same, but being the defender of light is vastly different from being the avatar.

Vaelias wrote:

What? First off you just swapped the word connection in the quote to importance to line up with your argument, secondly how is there literally a direct link to Yoda if its just about him being important, how does the entire arc in Season 6 happen, you should be able to explain what is happening there under that logic if that was the case.

But they are connected. Profoundly. Whoever the Sith Lord is, he may be using this relationship as a direct link to Yoda. -Voices Script

And you keep swapping the word connected with "having arbitrary links and connections through the force"*. The definition of "connection" is "a relationship in which a person, thing, or idea is linked or associated with something else.". Nowhere in that definition necessitate a spiritual aspect or link between the two. You even cited this quote later on:

I could feel the connections Dooku had forged among Jango and the Trade Federation, the Geonosians, the whole Separatist movement: connections of greed and fear, of deception and bald intimidation. I did not know what they were—I did not know how Dooku had forged them, or why— but I felt their power: the power of what I now know is a web of treason he had woven to catch the galaxy.

Is Dooku having a force link with Nute Gunray? Or is it possible that "connection" in this sense only means that they are associated with each other instead of meaning some elaborate spiritual connection?

**HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 5
---

*** READER PLEASE READ ***

I want to make it very clear that I'm not here to dispute the existence of Jedi bonds/links. I agree Jedi benefit from their bonds with other Jedi, I even explained why that's a point in favor of TOTJ:

Spoiler:

What I am here to dispute is the notion that somebody is the embodiment of that power.

Here's my counter theory, one that isn't based on making random connections between unrelated sources. The force is a "collective energy" (link) shared by all and belonging to all. The Jedi can "tap into this collective energy, and use it in combat or for other magical purposes" (link). It is a community source of energy, much like in Shamunism, and it doesn't belong to anybody. Nobody can use the entirety of this power, the force is "infinite" (DB:ROT), "timeless" (The Jedi Path), "Omnipresent" (Dark Side Sourcebook).

Just makes more sense to me

3. The Thought Bomb:

Vaelias wrote:
It's not irrelevant when that power is the power the Jedi use, and that's the power in the thought bomb, and thats the power Lord Hoth is the center of
[...]
I did not claim they were not present, there are far fewer of them than Jedi, and their power largely flowed from Kaan, and that power was not in the thought bomb, not only were their weak souls empowered by Kaan but their souls in general were largely drained by Kaan during the creation of the Thought Bomb, Kaan is the mind for the Brotherhood, much like Kaan pulls the collective Brotherhood out of Bane's Ritual he drains their souls into himself, a single vessel, to channel the Thought Bomb and activate it, so the Souls of the Sith are the tiniest fraction of themselves they can be.

Baseless*. There are 2000 Sith in the thought bomb (link) to counter 100 Jedi:

Despite the danger, virtually every single member of the Army of Light volunteered for the mission. General Hoth realized that he shouldn't have been surprised. After all, these were Jedi, willing to sacrifice everything - even their lives - for the greater good. In the end he did what he knew he would have to do all along: he himself chose who would accompany him to certain death.

He selected exactly ninety-nine others to go with him. The decision was agonizingly difficult. If he took less, the Sith might be able to fight their way out of the cave and escape, only to detonate their thought bomb somewhere else. But the more he took, the more Jedi lives he might be needlessly throwing away.

Choosing who would go with him was even more difficult. Those Jedi who had served at his side the longest, the ones who had joined the Army of Light at the very beginning of the campaign, were those he knew best. He knew how much they had already given in this war, and these were the ones he least wanted to lead to their doom. Yet these were the ones with the most right to stand by his side when the end finally came, and when all was said and done that was how he made his selection. Those with the most seniority would go with him; the others would fall back with Lord Farfalla.

The hundred Jedi - the ninety-nine chosen plus Hoth himself - stood anxiously at the entrance of the tunnels. The sky above was growing dark as night fell and ominous storm clouds rolled in. Still, the general did not give the command to advance. He wanted to give Farfalla and the others enough time to get clear. If it had been possible, he would have ordered all those not going into the cave to leave Ruusan. But there wasn't time. They would simply have to get as far away as possible, then hope they were beyond the range of Kaan's thought bomb.


The rest of this argument is that the power of the Sith is all in Kaan... that's quite the bizarre claim. It's a massive logical leap to go from Hoth and Kaan being at the center of the tapestry (not proven) to the rest of the Sith/Jedi literally not having power without them. Why does the Jedi retain their powers after Hoth's death then? Is Farfalla at the center now? Is that power transferrable? And why is Farfalla demonstrated to be below Raskata Lsu?

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 6
---

4. Where's Odan in this?

Vaelias wrote:
I think Odan could possibly fit the framework in some ways, that is an Idea I have been toying with but Im still not sure about that one, where as Urr does have a connection to all the Jedi at the calling, it seems to be less a case of Force Bonds like Yoda and Hoth and more a case of just well... Telepathy, in fact some of the Jedi don't even know who Odan Urr is so I definitely would not say Urr has any sort of strong bond with all the guys there he is just a good telepath, even communicating with Cay who doesn't even know who he is and vice versa, he is just good at speaking through the force to those around him, thus he is the spokesman for the Jedi
Needless to say simple Telepathy does not come with or require the connections or bonds you draw power from, its purely to do with the mind and not the heart and spirit, you do not need a force bond to speak to somebody through telepathy, furthermore some of the Jedi don't even know who Urr is, now idk about you but I can't imagine that being the case for Yoda or for Hoth, somebody who has the entire Army screaming his name in glory, I see Odan Urr being your Cassius Vecellinus and your Hoth being your Julius Caeser, your Consul of Rome in the real early days who technically runs the country but no one gives a shit about, and your Dictator for Life the beloved war hero savior who transformed the country an saved the day before being killed, from a greater more modern version of Rome, that is how I see Odan Urr and Hoth, Odan being the Yoda of his era is in reference to their stature in the Order in terms of respect, Odan and Vodo are the most respected Jedi of their era just as Yoda and Mace are for theirs, and that's largely because of his spokesmanship and politics no doubt, and sure some respect can be garnered through their strength in the force, but that does nothing for you really, Odan is the most respected, an sure in part his strength in the force has a role in that of course, but that means nothing by itself when there is a clear disconnect between the respect and the strength in the force, it is but a factor at play, but the quote is definitely not a reference to how Odan is the beating heart of the Jedi like Yoda

But you were just using Kaan's telepathic "domination" of the brotherhood to support your "all the Sith" theory*?

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 4

You also completely neglected the crux of my argument*. What I said is that, under your meta of the Jedi tapestry, the most logical person to be at the center of the TOTJ Jedi's web of power is the person who is literally the Yoda of the era.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 5

Your emphasis on the telepathy part makes you miss the forest for the trees. Your debunking of Odan actually hurts you theory. Is the force during TOTJ not a tapestry? Anyways let's go back to Vaelias logic:

While still a padawan, with barely any training, Nomi is capable of using "all the power of the light side of the Force", meaning she has the power of the entirety of light side:

"But by this time Nomi understood the purpose and meaning of the lightsaber-and from that day forward she fought with all the power of the light side of the Force. She was never eager to use her lightsaber, but she knew it was occasionally necessary. By learning to accept this, she became a great Jedi Master and a great warrior."

Nomi at this point is demonstrated to be significantly below Thon (link) who is below Odan. Odan scales significantly beyond the full power of the light side
---

C): All the Sith Palpatine Kaan

Most of these responses will be the same as above. He did raise a couple of hilarious omission of context so let's point them out:

Vaelias wrote:
Kaan feeds them, rejuvenates them, fills their hollow spirits with his power of the force, so it doesn't actually matter how you read it, Kaan is still the source of their power he is still feeding them.

I see you sneaking in "his power of the force" to him filling their spirits*. The greater context of the text is him using his charisma to raise their spirits**, and it has nothing to do with some spiritual connection:

“The full power of the Sith Lords is now united here on Ruusan,” he continued, projecting his words to even the most distant of his followers. Reaching out to them with the undeniable power of the Force, he fed them, rejuvenated them, and filled their hollow spirits. “We are strong. Stronger than the Jedi. We are the champions of the dark side, and we will crush Lord Hoth and his servants of light!”
A great shout roared up from his troops. Those who were seated leapt to their feet. Those who were standing thrust their fists up in the air. The echo of their cheers shook the camp like a groundquake.”

Raising morale using his subtle emotional manipulation on top of his undeniable charisma isn't the same as literally filling them with power.

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 5

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 3
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Vaelias wrote:
furthermore the hollow spirits mean they are just not full of force, we see what hallow means in this context in the same novel

Bane's spirits are hollow because he lost his emotional will to use the dark side, not because of him losing Kaan's spiritual connection*.

“What about Bane? He showed great promise in disposing of Fohargh.”
Kas’im shrugged. “That was a month ago. Since then he has made almost no progress. Something is holding him back. Fear, I think.”
“Fear? Of the other students? Of Sirak?”
“No. Nothing like that. He’s finally seen what he is truly capable of; he’s seen the full power of the dark side. I think he’s afraid to face it.”
“Then he is of no further use to us,” Qordis stated flatly. “Focus on the other students. Don’t waste your time on him.”

In fact after regaining his will to use the dark side, his powers returned. This is completely different from what you're suggesting. His spirits are not being filled with power, the power was always there. He just had emotional growth that allows him to use his powers again. Try again.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 4
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Vaelias wrote:
So he uses subtle manipulations of their emotions to keep their loyalty strong, but why does this preclude him feeding them power, of course he would have a connection to their spirits, to say he doesn't is to say they don't have force bonds, which is obviously ridiculous. that's all a force bond is in the end, a connection of spirit. furthermore I don't think this looks very much like 'subtle manipulations of their emotions'

I never doubted that Darkness Shared has Kaan telepathically dominating them, I'm arguing that the more prominent, visible, and official Bane novel doesn't*. In fact, the notion that he outright dominated them contradicts the novel, which has Kaan putting up a veneer of confidence and charisma to rally his troopers. That is directly contradictory with the idea that they are already under his mental domination:

“Lord Kaan clutched his head with his hands, as if a great pain threatened to burst his skull in two. He began to tremble in the grip of some terrible palsy. Kopecz involuntarily stepped back.
It only took a few seconds for Kaan to regain his composure and lower his hands. The haunted look in his eyes was gone, replaced by the calm self-assurance that had drawn so many to the Brotherhood in the first place.

He's also scared of losing the morale of his troops, something that doesn't seem logical if they're completely loyal to him and are utterly dominated telepathically:

“Kopecz shook his head in disgust. “I’m not one of your sycophantic advisers,” he said, his voice rising. “I won’t grovel and scrape before you, Lord Kaan. I won’t heap praise on your fool head when I can see with my own eyes that you are leading us to our destruction!”
“Keep your voice down!” Kaan snapped. “You will destroy the morale of our troops!”
“They have no morale left to destroy,” Kopecz shot back, though he did lower his volume. “We can’t defeat Jedi with ordinary soldiers. There are too many of them and not enough of us.”

And as the novel suggests, he's using subtle hints and manipulations instead of outright domination.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 6
-

Vaelias wrote:
Yeah I know that lol, I didn't claim it was Kaan at all but the quote specifies it is THEIR power Jerec wants, and its also their power that they largely rely on Kaan for, that's why I put it in there. already went over the spirit thing above so won't talk about it again. all this still holds so far

Yes he wants the power of the Sith as a collective, that doesn't mean their power is hold within Kaan. The red part is baseless*.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 7

There's too many of these so I may lose count
-

This is a great time to mention that Kaan isn't Luke or Yoda, it's pointless to bring them up. Luke's case is built around a vague quote for him "inheriting the Jedi mantle" which can just mean he became a Jedi*? Yoda's claims have been a pointless semantical back and forth so let that discussion be judged based on what it is. Kaan isn't Shimrra as well, the Vong are separate from the force and their mechanics are drastically different, plus Stover wrote TUF while Drew wrote Bane trilogy. Kaan isn't any of them, so I don't want to debunk their claims. Instead, I want to look at the claims from the Bane novel itself that you bring up, since that's the most directly related to Kaan. If none of those quotes support your theory, then your theory is built on flimsy comparisons to other characters.

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 7
---

Quote 1:

Then he noticed Lord Kaan standing off to the side, over by the fliers. "What happened?" Bane demanded angrily. "Why did you stop?" "Your plan worked," Kaan replied curtly. "The forest is destroyed, the Jedi have fled to open ground. They are exposed, vulnerable. Now we go to finish them off." Kaan had broken the connection, and somehow he had managed to drag the others out along with him, as if he had some hold over their minds.

He does have some control over their minds, which is likely built from years of subtle manipulations and mental conditionings slowly subjugating them, but this doesn't prove a spiritual link.
0/1

Quote 2:

Revan's Holocron: a way to unite the minds and spirits of the Sith through a single vessel so their strength could be unleashed upon the physical world. In many ways the process was similar to the one used to fashion a thought bomb from the Force, though this was less powerful than the ritual he had sent as a peace offering to Kaan-and far less dangerous


This isn't about Kaan having a spiritual link with the brotherhood*, but rather a specific technique in Revan's holocron that allows the minds to be joined temporarily,, which is why Kaan "broke the connection".

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 5

0/2

Quote 3:

Drawing closer he could make out a single figure standing in the center of the circle: Lord Kaan. He hadn't seen him at first; the middle of the ring was darker than the rest of the cave. There seemed to be a black cloud hovering above him, tendrils of inky darkness extending down to wrap and twist around him in a sinister embrace.

I read this quote thrice and can't even identify what you're using from this quote to support your theory, so I'm assuming it's another hyperliteral reading*?

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 8

0/3

Quote 4:

The details were too sharp and clear to call it a dream; the experience too vivid and real. It was a vision. There was a link between the two of them, a bond established through their time together studying the Force. A connection between mentor and student was not unheard of, although Githany was no longer sure who had really been the Master and who the apprentice in their relationship.

This is a point against your case, because you're arguing the force link between Kaan and the brotherhood means he's the source of their power. But neither Bane nor Githany is the source of the other's power, so if this is the kind of link you're referring to, then you just defeated your case*.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 5

-1/4
---

So that's about it. Most of these "all the Jedi' or "all the Sith" theories are based on flimsy interpretations of rather clear-cut quotes. Nothing in Bane trilogy support this theory, and the basis is making shaky connections to drastically different characters written by different authors with completely different view of the force.

4. Where's Odan in this?

Vaelias wrote:
I think Odan could possibly fit the framework in some ways, that is an Idea I have been toying with but Im still not sure about that one, where as Urr does have a connection to all the Jedi at the calling, it seems to be less a case of Force Bonds like Yoda and Hoth and more a case of just well... Telepathy, in fact some of the Jedi don't even know who Odan Urr is so I definitely would not say Urr has any sort of strong bond with all the guys there he is just a good telepath, even communicating with Cay who doesn't even know who he is and vice versa, he is just good at speaking through the force to those around him, thus he is the spokesman for the Jedi
Needless to say simple Telepathy does not come with or require the connections or bonds you draw power from, its purely to do with the mind and not the heart and spirit, you do not need a force bond to speak to somebody through telepathy, furthermore some of the Jedi don't even know who Urr is, now idk about you but I can't imagine that being the case for Yoda or for Hoth, somebody who has the entire Army screaming his name in glory, I see Odan Urr being your Cassius Vecellinus and your Hoth being your Julius Caeser, your Consul of Rome in the real early days who technically runs the country but no one gives a shit about, and your Dictator for Life the beloved war hero savior who transformed the country an saved the day before being killed, from a greater more modern version of Rome, that is how I see Odan Urr and Hoth, Odan being the Yoda of his era is in reference to their stature in the Order in terms of respect, Odan and Vodo are the most respected Jedi of their era just as Yoda and Mace are for theirs, and that's largely because of his spokesmanship and politics no doubt, and sure some respect can be garnered through their strength in the force, but that does nothing for you really, Odan is the most respected, an sure in part his strength in the force has a role in that of course, but that means nothing by itself when there is a clear disconnect between the respect and the strength in the force, it is but a factor at play, but the quote is definitely not a reference to how Odan is the beating heart of the Jedi like Yoda

But you were just using Kaan's telepathic "domination" of the brotherhood to support your "all the Sith" theory*?

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 4

You also completely neglected the crux of my argument*. What I said is that, under your meta of the Jedi tapestry, the most logical person to be at the center of the TOTJ Jedi's web of power is the person who is literally the Yoda of the era.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 5

Your emphasis on the telepathy part makes you miss the forest for the trees. Your debunking of Odan actually hurts you theory. Is the force during TOTJ not a tapestry? Anyways let's go back to Vaelias logic:

While still a padawan, with barely any training, Nomi is capable of using "all the power of the light side of the Force", meaning she has the power of the entirety of light side:

"But by this time Nomi understood the purpose and meaning of the lightsaber-and from that day forward she fought with all the power of the light side of the Force. She was never eager to use her lightsaber, but she knew it was occasionally necessary. By learning to accept this, she became a great Jedi Master and a great warrior."

Nomi at this point is demonstrated to be significantly below Thon (link) who is below Odan. Odan scales significantly beyond the full power of the light side
---

C): All the Sith Palpatine Kaan

Most of these responses will be the same as above. He did raise a couple of hilarious omission of context so let's point them out:

Vaelias wrote:
Kaan feeds them, rejuvenates them, fills their hollow spirits with his power of the force, so it doesn't actually matter how you read it, Kaan is still the source of their power he is still feeding them.

I see you sneaking in "his power of the force" to him filling their spirits*. The greater context of the text is him using his charisma to raise their spirits**, and it has nothing to do with some spiritual connection:

“The full power of the Sith Lords is now united here on Ruusan,” he continued, projecting his words to even the most distant of his followers. Reaching out to them with the undeniable power of the Force, he fed them, rejuvenated them, and filled their hollow spirits. “We are strong. Stronger than the Jedi. We are the champions of the dark side, and we will crush Lord Hoth and his servants of light!”
A great shout roared up from his troops. Those who were seated leapt to their feet. Those who were standing thrust their fists up in the air. The echo of their cheers shook the camp like a groundquake.”

Raising morale using his subtle emotional manipulation on top of his undeniable charisma isn't the same as literally filling them with power.

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 5

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 3
-

Vaelias wrote:
furthermore the hollow spirits mean they are just not full of force, we see what hallow means in this context in the same novel

Bane's spirits are hollow because he lost his emotional will to use the dark side, not because of him losing Kaan's spiritual connection*.

“What about Bane? He showed great promise in disposing of Fohargh.”
Kas’im shrugged. “That was a month ago. Since then he has made almost no progress. Something is holding him back. Fear, I think.”
“Fear? Of the other students? Of Sirak?”
“No. Nothing like that. He’s finally seen what he is truly capable of; he’s seen the full power of the dark side. I think he’s afraid to face it.”
“Then he is of no further use to us,” Qordis stated flatly. “Focus on the other students. Don’t waste your time on him.”

In fact after regaining his will to use the dark side, his powers returned. This is completely different from what you're suggesting. His spirits are not being filled with power, the power was always there. He just had emotional growth that allows him to use his powers again. Try again.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 4
-

Vaelias wrote:
So he uses subtle manipulations of their emotions to keep their loyalty strong, but why does this preclude him feeding them power, of course he would have a connection to their spirits, to say he doesn't is to say they don't have force bonds, which is obviously ridiculous. that's all a force bond is in the end, a connection of spirit. furthermore I don't think this looks very much like 'subtle manipulations of their emotions'

I never doubted that Darkness Shared has Kaan telepathically dominating them, I'm arguing that the more prominent, visible, and official Bane novel doesn't*. In fact, the notion that he outright dominated them contradicts the novel, which has Kaan putting up a veneer of confidence and charisma to rally his troopers. That is directly contradictory with the idea that they are already under his mental domination:

“Lord Kaan clutched his head with his hands, as if a great pain threatened to burst his skull in two. He began to tremble in the grip of some terrible palsy. Kopecz involuntarily stepped back.
It only took a few seconds for Kaan to regain his composure and lower his hands. The haunted look in his eyes was gone, replaced by the calm self-assurance that had drawn so many to the Brotherhood in the first place.

He's also scared of losing the morale of his troops, something that doesn't seem logical if they're completely loyal to him and are utterly dominated telepathically:

“Kopecz shook his head in disgust. “I’m not one of your sycophantic advisers,” he said, his voice rising. “I won’t grovel and scrape before you, Lord Kaan. I won’t heap praise on your fool head when I can see with my own eyes that you are leading us to our destruction!”
“Keep your voice down!” Kaan snapped. “You will destroy the morale of our troops!”
“They have no morale left to destroy,” Kopecz shot back, though he did lower his volume. “We can’t defeat Jedi with ordinary soldiers. There are too many of them and not enough of us.”

And as the novel suggests, he's using subtle hints and manipulations instead of outright domination.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 6
-

Vaelias wrote:
Yeah I know that lol, I didn't claim it was Kaan at all but the quote specifies it is THEIR power Jerec wants, and its also their power that they largely rely on Kaan for, that's why I put it in there. already went over the spirit thing above so won't talk about it again. all this still holds so far

Yes he wants the power of the Sith as a collective, that doesn't mean their power is hold within Kaan. The red part is baseless*.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 7

There's too many of these so I may lose count
-

This is a great time to mention that Kaan isn't Luke or Yoda, it's pointless to bring them up. Luke's case is built around a vague quote for him "inheriting the Jedi mantle" which can just mean he became a Jedi*? Yoda's claims have been a pointless semantical back and forth so let that discussion be judged based on what it is. Kaan isn't Shimrra as well, the Vong are separate from the force and their mechanics are drastically different, plus Stover wrote TUF while Drew wrote Bane trilogy. Kaan isn't any of them, so I don't want to debunk their claims. Instead, I want to look at the claims from the Bane novel itself that you bring up, since that's the most directly related to Kaan. If none of those quotes support your theory, then your theory is built on flimsy comparisons to other characters.

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 6
---

Quote 1:

Then he noticed Lord Kaan standing off to the side, over by the fliers. "What happened?" Bane demanded angrily. "Why did you stop?" "Your plan worked," Kaan replied curtly. "The forest is destroyed, the Jedi have fled to open ground. They are exposed, vulnerable. Now we go to finish them off." Kaan had broken the connection, and somehow he had managed to drag the others out along with him, as if he had some hold over their minds.

He does have some control over their minds, which is likely built from years of subtle manipulations and mental conditionings slowly subjugating them, but this doesn't prove a spiritual link.
0/1

Quote 2:

Revan's Holocron: a way to unite the minds and spirits of the Sith through a single vessel so their strength could be unleashed upon the physical world. In many ways the process was similar to the one used to fashion a thought bomb from the Force, though this was less powerful than the ritual he had sent as a peace offering to Kaan-and far less dangerous


This isn't about Kaan having a spiritual link with the brotherhood*, but rather a specific technique in Revan's holocron that allows the minds to be joined temporarily,, which is why Kaan "broke the connection".

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 5

0/2

Quote 3:

Drawing closer he could make out a single figure standing in the center of the circle: Lord Kaan. He hadn't seen him at first; the middle of the ring was darker than the rest of the cave. There seemed to be a black cloud hovering above him, tendrils of inky darkness extending down to wrap and twist around him in a sinister embrace.

I read this quote thrice and can't even identify what you're using from this quote to support your theory, so I'm assuming it's another hyperliteral reading*?

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 7

0/3

Quote 4:

The details were too sharp and clear to call it a dream; the experience too vivid and real. It was a vision. There was a link between the two of them, a bond established through their time together studying the Force. A connection between mentor and student was not unheard of, although Githany was no longer sure who had really been the Master and who the apprentice in their relationship.

This is a point against your case, because you're arguing the force link between Kaan and the brotherhood means he's the source of their power. But neither Bane nor Githany is the source of the other's power, so if this is the kind of link you're referring to, then you just defeated your case*.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 5

-1/4
---

So that's about it. Most of these "all the Jedi' or "all the Sith" theories are based on flimsy interpretations of rather clear-cut quotes. Nothing in Bane trilogy support this theory, and the basis is making shaky connections to drastically different characters written by different authors with completely different view of the force.

III. SCALING CHAINS

A): Kyle vs Brotherhood:

Vaelias wrote:
So your counter to this argument is that Kyle is actually more powerful but just less masterful?, Isn't your basis for Odan being stronger specifically about knowledge, Kyle is a novice force user these guys are not, does the whole knowledge = power thing go out the window here? just like the millennia of combat progression? But anyways lets take a look at the quote again...

Actually, all Kyle lacks is a specific technique. With that technique he is capable of replicating the entirety of Kaan's thought bomb by himself:



The entire basis of your quote is that Kyle is a "novice" compared to the rest of the brotherhood because he could've survive the thought bomb without LaTor. This quote is actually damning evidence for the brotherhood because it shows that with the specific technique he can learn from the holocron, Wyle has enough raw power to do what Kaan needed the entire brotherhood to achieve.
-

Vaelias wrote:
Are you seriously going to claim that LaTor and the other Lords are not way above Kyle, if you ask me the quote makes it pretty obvious the Dark One's are all far stronger than Kyle here, Kyle is a novice force user compared to the BoD, Id say novice here is all encompassing for the entirety of Kyle's skill set which includes his Force power, given the very next line says Kyle is not as strong as them, that they are very strong in comparison, and Kyle is like 'wow they are so powerful' they are just all round superior to Kyle and I don't think that's even debatable.

I think he lacks their training and the technique needed to replicate the feat. Given that he has enough raw power to not only survive but also replicate the thought bomb by himself, he's clearly not less powerful than them.

The Brotherhood were made of "highly trained minds", while Kyle is a prodigy lacking virtually any trainings in the force. Here's him admiring a basic showing of precog from Luke:

Each of the Imperial ships had its own fire-control center, and all of those centers had been slaved to a computer aboard the Destroyer. While this strategy made maximum use of the Task Force’s weaponry, it also created a pattern that Luke could feel.
The trick was to direct his mind toward understanding the individual subpatterns that contributed to the whole but to do so without conscious thought, because conscious thought took time and led to doubt. That being the case, Luke "sensed" where to direct his ship, fired when instinct told him to do so, and wove his way through a maze of outgoing laser fire. The Moldy Crow, still in one piece and still on Luke’s tail, followed behind.
Jan, her hands dancing between controls, spoke from the side of her mouth. “Did you see that? It’s as if he knows which way to go.”
Kyle, who had made a good deal of progress where his own talents were concerned, nodded admiringly. “That’s because he does know which way to go. Stay on his tail.

So yes, Kyle is a "novice" at this point lacking any trainings, but his insane raw power and connection to the force more than make up for it. Here's him fighting Boba to a land still  prior to any trainings:

Months after the evacuation of Yavin 4, he went after General Mohc's automated Dark Troopers. Katarn followed the trail from a bombed-out rebel outpost on Talay to Mohc's ship the Arc Hammer. Along the way he rescued Crix Madine from prison and battled Boba Fett to a stand still.

The same Boba who was fighting with top-tiers like Mace Kenobi or Durge while vastly pre-prime. It is incredibly unlikely to me personally that Boba would ever be written to lose to random brotherhood members, and Kyle matched him prior to growing significantly. He's objectively a novice at this point but he's also a super-prodigy with insane raw power.

Now let's look at what being a "novice" mean:

a person new to or inexperienced in a field or situation.

Experience means "practical contact with and observation of facts or events.". So being a "novice" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with skill, just the lack of experience, which might be why he doesn't know the technique to survive the thought bomb, even though he has the raw power to do so. Kyle is certainly a novice, much like AOTC Anakin and Prologue Hero are novices.

I get that this analysis isn't definitive, but it's the best IU reconcile to a person who matched Boba while pre-prime being sub random brotherhood fodder. The OOU reconcile would just be Drew having a vastly different conception of the brotherhood than Dietz (who wrote DF).
---

B) Marka Ragnos:

Vaelias wrote:
So Kyle having grown into his power, already a Knight finished his trials etc, is far stronger than Jaden Korr, who is a student new to the order, who is stronger than Marka Ragnos

This argument is a blatant omission of context*. Jaden Korr never fought the full power of Marka, he fought a Marka weakened by the limited physical restrains of Tavion who is significantly weaker than his true form, and even then he won the battle under heavy context. The following scans are credited to Rembo.








Circumstances:
- Tavion has not fully completed the resurrection ritual, and Ragnos jumps into Tavion as a last ditch effort
- Jaden has to use "hit and run" tactics to even stand a chance
- Tavion's health is halved when Ragnos entered her body
- Ragnos is able to outheal any damage Jaden deals until the sword is destroyed
- Without the sword Tavion is such a shit host that Ragnos is subsumed back into Chaos (also highlights how weakened Ragnos spirit is if he can't anchor to his literal tomb)
- Tavion's body explicitly "couldn't withstand the corruption"

Other things to consider:
- Ragnos himself required multiple potent nexi in order to be resurrected. "The Disciples of Ragnos are getting bold. They’ve managed to siphon Force energy from every site that was mentioned in my journal. We still don’t know what it is they’re planning to do with the energy though.”. It doesn't make sense on a power scaling
- Ragnos is hyped up as an order destroying threat similar to Kun, with Luke noting that "If Ragnos is resurrected, there's no telling what he might be able to do. It will take all of our strength stop him". Notably, Luke is referring to Marka returned to his true form (the original plan) so this allows us to get some insight on his potency if he was returned to his former powers.
- Ragnos is always portrayed as a Sith God who elicits obedience from very powerful force users like Kun and Vitiate, so it doesn't make narrative sense for his true form to be below a mere Padawan.

Ragnos while limited by Tavion's body, who I will refer to as Ragnavion from now on, is significantly weaker than full power Marka. But even then, wielding the power of Marka's sword, Ragnavion is "invincible". The real Marka will obliterate Jaden and it makes narrative sense.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 6
---

Vaelias wrote:
Kyle is a much harder threat for a more powerful character than Ragnos is
After killing Tavion, Kyle tries to stop you. Kyle is much more difficult than Marka Ragnos. - Do not try to go toe to toe with the Jedi Master by crossing sabers with him, or you will die! protect is also crucial as it will help you take less damage. Heal as often as you can and keep coming back for more. If you are getting crushed by his Force powers you may want to alternate protect with absorb. -Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima's Official Strategy Guide
You are left with Kyle Katarn >> Jaden Korr > Marka Ragnos > Sadow, Ludo, Nadd, Odan Urr all those TOTJ guys. Add that to what we already established and we have Kaan >>>>>> LaTor >>>> Kyle >> Jaden > Ragnos > pretty much all of TOTJ
So no the Ancients are not far more powerful than Kyle Katarn and these direct comparisons are more accurate than anything you can muster up from feat scaling like you tried to do! Clearly something is wrong there if you scaling yields Ancients above Kyle but when the strongest Ancient literally comes back he is below Kyles new student, then something clearly doesn’t add up with the scaling.  So all this still holds.

Firstly, your quote is referring to Ragnavion, since that's the form that fought Jaden. All of the above analysis on Ragnavion <<< FP!Marka applies.

Secondly, this Kyle isn't the same as the Kyle who's (allegedly) capped below the brotherhood, and you yourself talked about his growth, but you don't acknowledge the extent of it. Let's try to quantify how much more powerful this Kyle is:

For starters, Kyle was easily ragdolled by Desann:


Desann then experiences the power boost from the valley of the Jedi, which increased his powers "fourfold":
_{Hethrir increased his powers fourfold by absorbing energy from Jedi and Sith spirits. After gaining that power, the two Jedi were able to imbue others with the power of the Force."}

And yet, at the end, he defeated Desann in a "furious duel":

<sub>With help from Luke Skywalker, and Lando Calrissian, Katarn defeated Admiral Fyyar and destroyed Desann's flagship Doomgiver in the skies above Yavin 4. In a lightsaber duel on the jungle moon's surface, Katarn killed the power-mad Chistori.

Use all of the Jedi skills you've learned throughout the game... to defeat Desann.</sub>

This is caused by him embracing his fear and experiencing mega growth. Katarn then reconnected with the force while saving Jan, elevating him to his former level of power, that being the peak of his jedi self, which he likens to years of re-training. Note the fight happens on a potent dark side nexus:
Jedi Outcast endgame Kyle > Hindered endgame Kyle > Amped post-VOTJ Desann > Based post-VOTJ Desann >>>> pre-VOTJ Desann >>> Early game Kyle ~ DF II Kyle

He then experienced an entire decade of natural growth from Jedi Outcast to Jedi academy. Given his insane potential, we'd get something like this:
Jedi Academy Kyle >>> Jedi Outcast endgame Kyle > Hindered endgame Kyle > Amped post-VOTJ Desann > Based post-VOTJ Desann >>>> pre-VOTJ Desann >>> Early game Kyle ~ DF II Kyle

Jedi Academy Kyle is on a completely different level of power to the "novice" Kyle. He grew significantly in combative potency on top of experience and mastery. Even if Marka is below this Kyle, that has no bearings on Marka vs DF!Kyle.
---

C) Kyle vs Desolus vs Odan

Vaelias wrote:
That is no issue at all, here is another case of your misunderstanding of the power mechanics at play, your presence in the valley amps you, right, so take both Jerec and Kyle and throw em in the Valley their base levels are amped to the same degree from their surroundings, then on top of that Jerec is drawing on the leakage of the Thought Bomb aka the power of all the spirits trapped in there, that is where all the power is coming from. Kyle is not drawing on that energy, in fact the very scan you provided mentions that Kyle need not use that power for the Light Side of the Force will give him all he needs So you have Jerec's base level with Vader's and you have Kyle's so far above that, that when their base levels are both amped, Kyle is close to Jerec even with the power of the spirits on top of the amped base level,

Out of the many issues with this logic, a prevalent one is the baseless idea that the nexus amps everybody to the same degree*. Here's a quote from Sean Stewart about Vjun:

To use a fanciful metaphor, Yoda and Dooku are both like surfers in a place with big waves. The more expert the surfer, the more they can do with that power. It is also more dangerous, and for the novice the cost of losing control is higher.

"The more expert the surfer, the more they can do with that power". BoD members are (allegedly) above base Kyle, so when you scaling chain reads "BoD Member >>> Kyle > Valley Jerec >>>> Normal Jerec", that means you think base!Kyle is ">>>>>" Normal!Jerec. If Kyle is a way better surfer, then he can do much more with the power of the valley, so he is still amped relative to Jerec.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 7

This argument works under Vaelias logic, because the leakage triples power. So for example, if Kyle is a 5 and Jerec a 4, there's a 1 unit gap in force power. If they are tripled, amped!kyle is 15 and amped!Jerec is 12, so there's a 3 unit gap in force power. That gap is increased by the gap between Kyle and Jerec. For example, if Kyle is a 20 and Jerec a 15, then there's a 15 unit different in their multiplied state.

Next, you also baselessly assert that the power mechanics behind the valley is the same as typical nexus*. Kyle used the valley and its power as a portal to embracing the light side, that's different from Jerec and the mechanics are different.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 8

Moreover, you also ignore the growth Kyle experiences through-out Dark Forces*. The entire game/novel is a process of him regaining his force powers and growing stronger in the force, and given his prodigious potential, Kyle as of his confrontation with Jerec would be significantly stronger than the one your brotherhood comparison is discussing. I have already discussed his growth above.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 7

At the very worst, you have at least conceded Kyle > amped!Jerec*. Your argument is now instead amped!Kyle > amped!Jerec > normal!Kyle > base!Jerec. So the basis of your scaling, which was normal!Kyle > amped!Jerec is conceded.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 6

There's a lot more mitigating factor I can bring up here, but I think this entire comparison is built on some very shaky grounds.
-

Vaelias wrote:
What about the other quote I posted ? Well it straight up says Jerec isnt as powerful as Vader, the use of the word quite there emphasises Jerec's proximity to Vader, so yeah that is what rivaling means, and it is power in the Dark Side
The Tattooed man's dark-side energy wasn't quite as powerful as the feeling she'd gotten from Darth Vader months ago. This man wasn't as strong as Vader. But he was almost as evil -Galaxy of Fear

And on top of that the stuff I mentioned about Jerec also being deserving of Vader's role as The Emperor's apprentice, seems you missed that, so no, you cannot sweep these aside on the basis that it "doesn't necessarily mean he is close in any meaningful capacity" because in this case it absolutely could not be more clear that it is indeed, in a meaningful capacity. This also still holds.

You completely ignored my imperial guards analogy*, they are also stated to be almost as combatively potent as Vader yet were still stomped in combat. The quote from Galaxy of Fear is from the perspective of Tash, somebody who is barely force sensitive and is infinitely inferior to both Vader and Jerec**. I'm not sure she's the most reliable narrator to go off of. You also ignored my quote saying Jerec is below Executor Sedriss***.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 7

**IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 8

***IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 8

On top of everything, these are completely unquantifiable numbers. Remember you have not proven Kyle is above amped!Jerec, only base Jerec.

So even buying all of your arguments, what we get is something like:

BoD > Early DF!Kyle < Late DF!Kyle > Jerec < Vader. The gaps here are unquantifiable and you can't definitively say they are above Vader.
---

I also want to make a quick appeal to intuition and narrative aesthetics here. Vader and Exar Kun are main characters who are Dark Lords of the Sith with an impressive belt of feats and accolades. The possibility Kun or Vader are going to be written to be losing to random BoD Lords is extremely small. This notion is fundamentally disrespectful to the narrative intent behind these characters and Star Wars. if Kun is written to fight nameless fodder in the BoD, he's going to be written to win every time.

Vaelias wrote:
Because Hoth lives after the Council that killed Desolous, and remember the whole constantly growing well of energy I talked about, It logically follows that the Jedi of Hoth's time would be stronger than in Desolous' time, the Jedi in this time are only just rebuilding after the events of TOR, and Hoth's Order is a good two-thousand odd years of growth above them, so if Hoth is embodying the collective power of that order why would him being one guy cap him below the ancient council?, the reason I say it caps Urr is because Urr does not embody the ancient order, he is only one guy, and sure he he might be stronger than any one Jedi of The Desolous era council, but there is 0 reason for me to think he would be above the collective council that proceeds him by 1000 odd years, given the power mechanics it is my default assumption that Odan is below the future combined council.

The only quote you have provided supporting the growing well of power is in reference to Luke entering a very specific state in a oneness state combined with Anakin Solo and Leia*:

Spoiler:

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 9

It's also worthwhile noting that the technique of the luminous beings was lost somewhere in the order's history, making it unfair to say that the NSW Jedi can use this power:

What he found instead was formless, supple, and fathomless-an infinite emptiness, but as serene as a wind toppling trees to encourage new growth. A being of light, Jacen was drawing into himself all of Onimi's lethal compounds, neutralizing them and casting them out as sweat, tears, and exhalations. He understood at last why he had failed to catch Anakin's lightsaber when Luke had tossed it to him: he was never meant to catch it, because he had become the lightsaber. He had attained the ability to cut through any resistance in himself; to sever the bonds of preconception; to open a gaping hole into a reality more expansive than any he had ever dared imagine; to heal.

As his grandfather had done, he had broken through the apparent opposites that concealed the absolute nature of the Force, and found his way into an unseen unity that existed beyond the seeming separateness of the world. For a moment all the cosmic tumblers had clicked into place, and light and dark sides became something he could balance within himself, without having to remain on one side or the other.

The consciousness that was Jacen Solo was strewn across the vast spectrum of life energy. He had passed beyond choice and consequence, good and evil, light and dark, life and death. All that had been required of Jacen was complete surrender-a technique once mastered by the Jedi Order but at some point misplaced; transposed to an emphasis on individual achievement, which had opened a way to arrogance. In that the path was available to any who chose to seek and follow it, Jacen understood that the discovery was really a rediscovery.
Jacen realized that, in a sense, he had paraphrased Onimi. He had passed beyond the tradition of the Jedi Order into a more embracing reality. But instead of attempting to steal the authority of the gods, or to become a god, *he had finally allowed himself to merge with the Force in its entirety and become a conduit for its raw power, which flowed through him like the thundering headwaters of a great river. The conjoining of the Force and his Vongsense enabled him to render himself small enough to follow Onimi wherever he went or attempted to hide; to counter Onimi's every action, and merge with his living vessel on a molecular level.

The ability to call upon the power of every Jedi in history is achieved by Luke unlocking a very specific state of oneness combining three Skywalkers, and the ability to use the technique was lost in ancient times.
-

Vaelias wrote:
Oh yeah Desolus' fight vs the Jedi Council was stated to be a fight between armies.. Uhhh, ok, a Jedi fleet cornered him and prevented his retreat, so what? what here says that it didn't take the whole council to kill him, this quote does not preclude my claim in any sense. in fact the wording fits perfectly, as it should ofc, the army was destroyed and Desolous finally struck down,are you trying to claim that it was the fleet that killed Desolous? did it take all 12 councillors in their star cruisers to drop enough bombs on him to kill him or something? why couldnt some droids do that, "It took 12 droids to kill me boy" that isn't what 'struck down' implies, nor is it consistent with what we literally get told happens lol

First, I'm not sure why you're taking Desolous' boast as a definitive evidence of what happened*? Desolous was trying to make himself seem powerful to Galen, that's hardly absolute evidence.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 10

Secondly, notice that the ambiguous nature of the event is harmful for Desolous. We don't know what happened, all we know is that it was a chaotic battle between armies. So which one sounds like the more logical claim, Desolous was struck down in the midst of the chaotic battle, or Desolous somehow had an isolated duel with the Jedi Council in the middle of the battle? You can't make definitive power level claims based on completely unknown events. We have no clue if there's any circumstances or context during his death, and all you have supporting your case is an arrogant boast from Desolous himself.
-

D) Darth Vader vs Exar Kun

Vaelias wrote:
Ok great this is exactly the argument I hoped you would make, and much like Janix (who seems to have helped out here) in the debate w AP, you seem to have made the same misunderstanding of the core of the argument which again comes down to a lack of understanding of the power mechanics at play. Now your argument is that the force getting increasingly stronger over time is NOT supported because the Dark Side waxes and wanes over time. But why are the two mutually exclusive? Not one of those quotes you posted precludes my claim, I showed you evidence for the force growing stronger over time, and in response you showed me evidence for the force being timeless and waxing and waning, but you failed once again to actually address or pick apart the evidence I posted or engage with the substance of the argument, do you think what you posted in response here is somehow a retcon to the evidence I laid out, that you can just write off all of that evidence I posted on account of the sources you posted ?


Well you will find that none of that actually addresses anything I have talked about, firstly If I am wrong then you should be able to give me explanations for what the quotes I shared are really about, and how all that functions without this ever expanding well of energy, for example how do you propose Luke or Rey or Yoda are drawing on all the Jedi? How does all the stuff I mentioned work if its not how I proposed, you failed to do this so this all still stands. I never refuted that the force is timeless or that it doesn't wax and wane, I briefly explained this above but Ill go over it so its here with some of the basic force mechanics if I must, As I talked about in my reasoning which you seemed to ignore is that the well of energy that is building up is made up of those who pass into the force, i.e go to the Netherworld i.e The Light Side or to Chaos, The Dark Side. so if the well is made up of the collective energy of ones who die, then that does not wax and wane does it ? that is ever increasing. What waxes and wanes is not the power of the dark side, it is the imbalance in the Living Force, the Dark Side is not inherently a part of the Living Force, it is part of the Cosmic Force, and seeps into the Living Force when it is drawn upon, everybody is a part of the Living Force think of everyone like a light in the tapestry that we talked about, so when they draw on the dark side, it corrupts them, like cancer, and their Living Force turns into what is essentially Dying Force, however bright the light was of the guy that got corrupted and/or the amount of people who are corrupted determines the severity of the imbalance in the Living Force, that is what waxes and wanes, not the well of power they use to create the imbalance.

With the Sith the Dark Lord embodies the power of Chaos, so Vader wields Kun's energies as noted in TOTJ itself in my post which you failed to address, and if you remember what I specified in post

You have this hobby where you love to use your theories to affirm each other in a constant loop of circular logic. Just because your Sith conspiracy theory is somehow congruent with your Jedi conspiracy theory doesn't mean that they are validated. You need to actually provide quotes to prove them. I see so many uncited tangents and assertions in this passage regarding how the force works*, you haven't provided quotes for virtually any of these statements regarding the living and cosmic force.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 9

Next, you just accidentally conceded your entire case*, because if Vader inherits the power of all past Dark Lords of the Sith, then he would also inherit the power of Bane - a power that is "astronomically more powerful than Lord Hoth". If you want to keep the Vader > Kun link, you would need to concede your Hoth > Kyle (>Vader) arguments and then argue against them. If you want to keep your Hoth > Vader/Kyle links, you would need to debunk your own argument for Vader inheriting the Dark Lord of the Sith power. Either way, you tangled yourself in a helpless web here.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 7

Third, most of these quotes in support of this theory are hyperliteral reading*, so let's go through them semantically just to put a debunk on the record:

Quote 1:

Married to the order of the Sith, you will need no other companion than the dark side of the Force …

Nowhere in this quote does it say Vader inherits the power of past Sith*, all it says is that he is now fully a Sith and embraced the dark side, which can be said about virtually every full Sith:

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 9

0/1

Quote 2:

Again and again the dark side has surged forth, like a storm…devouring whole worlds and entire star systems. Those who mastered dark power became dark power. They unleashed destruction, for no other reason than for selfish gain. They despoiled nations…destroyed whole civilizations. Some of them, I am ashamed to say, were Jedi."

This quote is referring to the Sith becoming dark power who conquers and fuck the galaxy over, not that they literally become dark power*. If you read the context of the quote it's not referencing the power of the dark side.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 11

0/2

Quote 3:

The Dark Lords were powerful Jedi Knights who used the dark side of the force to master the Sith people. There could be but one dark lord at a time this lineage was passed from one generation to the next. It is said their mummified remains are preserved forever Ron a hidden world in monumental temples they constructed to honour themselves

This quote is referencing the mantle of the Dark Lord, not the power*. If you think that mantle holds power, you would need more proof.

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 10

0/3

Quote 4:

"I now complete your initiation to the power of the dark side...so that you may bring to pass the great destiny foretold...Exar Kun, because of you, the Sith will never die...you have rightly earned the title of...Dark Lord of the Sith!"

This quote is referencing the mantle of the Dark Lord, not the power*. If you think that mantle holds power, you would need more proof.

*HYPERLITERAL READING COUNTER: 11

0/4
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Rest of the quotes aren't loading for me but they're pretty much just semantical differences anyways. Let's get back to the actual debate. We know for a fact that Vader didn't inherit Kun's powers:

"I could show you techniques that were lost thousands of years ago, secret rites and hidden doorways to power that no weak Jedi Master like Skywalker dares to touch."

"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere."

Vader was even name-called in this quote:



Vader doesn't have Kun's knowledge - which is probably why he's a nun next to even Jedi Kun:



I've seen a lot of excuses made for Vader, a lot of them center around the notion that this quote is referring to Kun being more "fearsome" than Vader, and isn't indicative of any power levels. But given the context, of Kun gaining "unbelievable power" to the extent that the protagonists "have their work cut out for them", it's clearly indicative of some degree of power. Another thing I would note is that Vader is supposed to look more fearsome and menacing than he really is. Coming from the top level:
"The Idea is when Darth Vader comes on, in Episode 4, it suddenly has this huge, powerful effect because you know right from the get-go that Vader is Princess Leia's father. You know that when you cut down to Luke, you know that's his son, and you realize that Darth Vader is this pathetic character. He's not this big, all-powerful monster. He's actually this pathetic man who made some wrong choices, who found himself trapped in the world of evil."

"He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

So while he would give the impressive that he's "so overwhelming" and "so powerful", he's "not even an all powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky". He's ultimately "not this big, all powerful monster". His entire persona, his mask, menacing black armor, and his heavy strides are all supposed to convey that he's more fearsome and intimidating than he really is. He's not as powerful as he seems. But even then, Kun as a padawan makes him look like a nun.

This is also a good time to mention that Dan Thorsland is "the editor for nearly all the Dark Horse comics that have and will bear the Star Wars title" (link), so he's clearly not some second rate author as well.

But anyways, Kun gets a lot of other stuff, like all the time he's mentioned alongside Palpatine whenever Luke think of big-bad threats of his past:

There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Leia thinks Kueller is the most powerful being she has ever felt... since Kun:

She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

These are old arguments, old quotes, I'm sure you've seen a million analysis of them already by ANCIENTPOWER. I'm not here to argue that Kun is more powerful than DE Palps, but he's constantly getting this level of respect as this guy who's worth mentioning alongside Palpatine. Let's quickly discuss how characters view Vader? Here's Cronal making an off-handed comment about how pathetic Vader is:

For all his undoubted physical power, Vader had never been more than a blunt instrument, with no real understanding of the truth of the Dark, nor of the uses of real power. He had been, all in all, only a thug with a lightsaber... and, as it proved, a weakhearted, emotionally crippled, impulsively treasonous thug at that.

Here's Luke noting a random nightsister in Telenial is better at TK than Vader:

"Waytha ara quetha way. Waytha ara quetha way!" Lightning crackled overhead and a dozen small boulders blasted toward Luke, hurtling through the air. Vader had tried similar tricks, but Luke reflected woefully that Vader hadn't been nearly as good at it. He swung wildly with his lightsaber, bursting several pieces of rock, but one caught him in the chest, throwing him backward a pace. Repulsed by the witches.

Joruus C'baoth is "easily as formidable" as him:

According to Luke Skywalker, the duplicate C'baoth was easily as formidable a foe as Darth Vader and completely twisted to the dark side of the Force.

There's so much shit I can bring up here, but I really don't want to argue a point that debunks your entire case.

Vaelias wrote:
So we have proven Vader is more powerful, TOTJ itself setting up Kun's power passing down to Vader, so Vader has all this power, and obviously it is not in this power in which he is rivalled by Jerec, as Jerec is does not posses the mantle of Dark Lord, nor is he the Chosen One, which can only mean that Jerec's rivalling of Vader is in regards to the part of Vader that is sub TPM Kenobi, which is Vader's Living Force connection, the power that was hampered when he was cut up. and the power that is still superior to Exar Kun's, in large part due to Vader being more deadly in a combative context then Kun, despite that being the very thing that is emphasised to make Vader suck and the very thing that Kun gets all his hype for


So there’s a well of power, that’s growing overtime so linearly the characters in that well of power are going to have access to more power as time goes on first we have Kun then we have Kaan and then we have Vader, Vader has the biggest well of power Kun has the smallest, smallest well of power Now, Exar Kun can make more use of his smaller well of power than Vader can make out of his bigger well of power, because Vader suffered his injuries he is unable to make full use of that well However, the total amount of power made use of is still greater for Vader given that he is more combatively deadly than Exar Kun, because to be deadly, is to convert force power through yourself, It is Living Force Ability, since Darth Vader has greater Living Force Power than Exar Kun, what this means is that the portion of power form the larger well that Vader has is greater than Exar Kun's entire well, In other words If we have 1000 (Vader's well) and we take 50%(Vaders ability) of it, we get 500. If we have 500(Kun's well) and we take 80%(Kuns ability) of it, we get 400. Therefore, in this case, 50% of 1000 (500) is indeed greater than 80% of 500 (400). The Value of the 50% is greater than the 80%, so Vader drawing 50% from his well - he is still getting more power than Kun drawing on 80% of his. Vader just has greater power at his disposal, and Jerec rivals that power, and Katarn exceeds it. which of course perfectly fits with Katarn being far more powerful than Marka Ragnos etc etc. What I am getting at here is that Vader's power is far greater than both Kun and Kaan, but there is a clear disconnect in Vader's power as we all know, and that level lies between Kun and Kaan. So in summary of (1) The Dark Side waxing and waning does not preclude anything I said and neither does the Force being timeless which was not refuted, I think it is, but there is obviously a constantly growing well of energy within that structure, an element which does increase over time, which still stands because you did not address it, we can get more into that after you do address it. if you want, can just concede too.


It is also important to note that Kun is one shotting Odan Urr before most of his growth even happens, getting the Dark Holocron which he acquired AFTER he one shot Odan Urr was the main thing attributed to his rise to power

Well there's a couple of things here as well. First, TOTJ did have a progression of the dark lord mantle, I'm not convinced it's about power. Regardless, that progression ended at Kun, and that's the entire narrative around his defeat. The Exiles - Marka - Sadow - Nadd - Kun line ended with the Jedi winning. The narrative was never for Kun's power to continue passing afterwards.

Second, a lot of these values are completely arbitrarily asserted*. You can't just assert Vader's mastery using a completely undefined unit, and then compare that with another completely unquantifiable metric to judge another arbitrary unit of the well of power. Especially since in your very own post you conceded Vader's mastery is being rivaled by Jerec and sub TPM Kenobi?

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 10

You also completely misunderstood my argument*. The response is that the force is infinite and timeless, so the concept of the force growing over time is impossible because infinity cannot be possibly larger but also the concept of time is below the concept of the force. I provided quotes for both of these claims, you ignored them.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 9

The point I was trying to make isn't only that the force wax and wane, but that the energy well isn't growing because it is already infinite.

Another point is that nobody is using anything close to the full power of the force. They only use the tiniest parts of the force, so it really doesn't matter how much force there is because the amount they can tap into is minimal in the first place.

Under Vaelias logic, Kun is noted to use the "full strength of the dark side", so he's actually using 100% of the well of power:

When Kun destroyed the creature with an ancient Sith amulet, he won the approval of Nadd, the full strength of the dark side, and the worship of the Massassi. Kun set the Massassi to work, expanding the remaining temples.

Quickly regarding the dark holocron point though, you ignore that Odan is post-prime in the confrontation, with multiple quotes citing the fact that he is "old and weak" as the primary reason for his defeat*.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 12

But also, Kun had the dark holocron for a few hours maximum before smashing it to pieces (link), so dare I suggest his rise to power is indicative of the numerous Jedi he converted to his side by possessing them with dark side spirits? Another little fact you miss*.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 13

Vaelias wrote:
So all that is saying is that now that Kun has been defeated again by Luke's order, Kun's teachings are gone and no records survive on Yavin, not that Kun upon his first defeat took all the 'Dark knowledge of the Sith' to his grave to where it never arose again, it evidently did because there are Sith that come after Kun, and Kun himself even comes back too lol. this is New Republic guys just saying it is unlikely the Sith will come back again now, after they finally killed Kun again

It says that any knowledge Kun had died with him, and it obviously wouldn't include knowledge that Kun never had, as they have no connection with Kun. The fact remains that it is "extremely unlikely that any records survive" after Kun's death. You even cited a quote in your very own post saying that the Ancient's knowledge were lost and misplaced:

For thousands of years, the ability to survive death had been pursued by Sith and Jedi alike, and no one had been successful at discovering the secret. Beings had been saved from dying, but no one had cheated death. The most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords had known the secret, but it had been lost or, rather, misplaced.

It's also worth noting that the very next line in the quote states "Vader... did not know all there is to know about Sith powers", so the quote is supposed to specifically specify that Vader didn't inherit Kun's power. Another little detail you missed there*.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 14

Vaelias wrote:
it should also be noted that in Star Wars Galaxies during the Battle of Echo Base there is a Vader fight, yet you can do him no damage, yet Exar Kun is a boss you can damage and defeat, but this is all ingrained in TOTJ itself and Hoth is a direct recipient of it, existing two thousand years of combat and force progression later and handling all the power we have outlined above

You neglect to mention that Kun fought the SWG heroes in a 1v4 match*:



*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 15

Vaelias wrote:
None of the debunks have sufficed to break any of the links or mechanics I have proposed, many of the debunks are based on a misreading or misunderstanding of the quotes and claims, or outright dismissal of them on no factual or reasonable basis, so all of this still holds.

I guess the issue here is the same recurring issue for all of your theories, they're once again things that might be true, things that can be supposed by the quotes, but they take a very specific hyperliteral reading to realize. Nothing you say is what a normie would intuit when reading the quotes on face value, and it's important to realize Star Wars isn't written for autistic versus debaters, it's written for normies.
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E) Odan vs Nadd vs Bane

Vaelias wrote:
Ummm?? what? you say Urr scales above Ambria, I write a debunk on why he does not, and your counter argument is "NO, Urr scales above Ambria" Yes I know that is what you claimed, that is what I debunked, saying it again is not a counter, you need to debunk my debunk, again something which you seem to have ignored.


Darthor: Urr scales above Ambria
Vaelias: No he doesnt because X,Y,Z
Darththor: NO, note that Urr scales above Ambria

Bruh!


Too add to that, how does Urr scale above Nadd exactly you will need to substantiate on that, although I like the idea that Nadd may have been killed by Urr, it is nothing more than speculation, It's funny that you brush off a lot of the solid connections I have made here as "theories and hyper-literal interpretations" while subscribing to something like this, when "Bane of the Sith" does not even mean that Urr killed Nadd, Definition of Bane or to be the Bane of something:


SS - Lord Hoth (Vaelias) vs Odan Urr (Darthor) 004e5420f83259c9f5a8156ad38f6fa8


Now although option 2 there may support the idea, 1 seems the more likely given that - Odan Urr is no warrior and is likely not slaying Sith Lords - Odan Urr being the spokesman and leading the Jedi would very well make him a cause of great distress or annoyance to the Sith at large Do whatever but it still doesn't change the scaling, even if you end up with Urr > Nadd

The argument with Ambria is that Thon is capable of containing dark side energies beyond anything Nadd or Sadow ever used (including meditation spheres and other amped states), and Odan is beyond Thon in both overall power and sever force/blocking technique. You do respond to this claim later on in the Ambria section so I'll deal with that once I get there.

Moreover, you yourself asserted in your first post that Hoth is above Kaan because the Jedi are always above the Sith, so Hoth is superior to his Sith counterpart in Kaan:

Vaelias wrote:
Now we explained how Hoth and Kaan function the same, are essentially the opposites, Yoda and Palpatine of their time, and it seems we might have got a similar confrontation if Kaan hadnt have kamikaze'd the both of them, but as if this wasnt enough, lets touch on why I think Hoth is actually better than Kaan, and that is simply because the Jedi were beating the Sith, the Jedi were better, have always been better per Lucas and other EU works, Hoth's forces of light were greater, the Sith near defeated, heres a few quotes for that before we get into what makes Hoth stand out as a warrior


"It is time to end this foolish quest, Bane. The old ways have failed. The Jedi defeated those who followed them: Exar Kun, Darth Revan . . . they all lost! We have to find a new philosophy if we want to defeat them." -Path of Destruction, Kas'im
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Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan: each had been powerful. Each had drawn disciples in, teaching them the ways of the dark side. Each had assembled an army of followers and unleashed them against the Jedi. Yet in each and every case the servants of light had prevailed**. -Path of Destruction
[*]
BEN (cont'd) This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight... not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized time. (He begins to remember) For over a thousand generations Jedi Knights were the most powerful, most respected force in the galaxy... the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic. That was when the galactic senate ruled the galaxy before the dark times, before the empire. - Adventures of Luke Skywalker as taken from The Journal of the Whills
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For over a thousand generations, Luke the Jedi Knights were the most powerful, most respected force in the galaxy. -A New Hope Novelisation
-
Again, Lucas does not tell the audience whether the story is set in the past, present or future. We learn that the Jedi Bendu knights have known the force of others for a hundred thousand years, and that they were the most powerful warriors in the Universe until “the tragic Holy Rebellion of “06””.66 However, it is not revealed whether “06” refers to a specific period of time. -Star Wars, The Rough Draft, May 1974

[*]

So let's talk about how Odan fits into this logic. For one thing, the very basis of TOTJ is Veitch trying to create the Jedi order in their prime, when they are still the most powerful warriors in the galaxy:





They're the period that completely exterminated the dark side and reigns as the supreme clan in the galaxy. To remind you, they made the dark side into a "faint memory" (TOTJ Omnibus) or an "insubstantial shadow" (Dark Empire Endnotes) prior to Exar Kun rising, creating a "torrent of the dark side" (Databanks) and proceeded to "supplant" the TOTJ masters (DE Endnotes):

Spoiler:

If we operate under your argument, where the leaders of the Jedi are more powerful than the Sith because the Jedi were more dominant, then Odan being the leader of the Jedi during his prime where the Sith were virtually extinct would bode very well for his supremacy.

Another point I would make is that there are narrative reasons for the "Yoda" of the Jedi to not be significantly weaker than the best of the Sith. He's the most powerful of the Jedi who directly led to the Sith's extinction (link). It makes sense narratively for Odan to be at least on that level.
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Vaelias wrote:
Plagueis makes no note of the Ancient Sith being able to MM, he says only that they were capable of 'extending life' and that is not through MM it is through the draining of Living Force that is unleashed when people die, and that is how they 'bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult or prevent cells from reaching senescence.'

This response doesn't engage with the argument*. Plagueis thinks the fact that the Ancient Sith can extend their own life is indicative of their superiority. He would understand the mechanics and the power needed to perform this power because he dedicated his entire life to studying immortality.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENT COUNTER: 9
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Vaelias wrote:
We see this same thing with Vader

Different mechanics here*. Vader is using the dark side to heal his wounds, something virtually every dark sider can do. The Ancient Sith are literally using sever force to stop and reverse aging, which is what Vitiate did to look young despite being thousands of years old.

*IGNORING CONTEXT COUNTER: 16
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Vaelias wrote:
Notice the disconnect here too, were they more powerful OR had the dark side just been more prominent The answer is, No they had not been more powerful, yes they had benefited from the dark side being more prominent, which is no surprise given that the dark side of this time is only a 'supporting wind', as oppose to a full blown imbalance where all the dark side is out and flowing around you

For the first time he could feel the Force of the dark side not as a mere supporting wind, fluffing the sails of a pleasure boat, but as a hurricane eager to loose a storm of destruction on the crumbling Republic and the indolent Jedi Order -Darth Plagueis

Seeing as the ability is explicitly drawing power from the others, the release of peoples Living Force energies when they die, they are just stealing other peoples energies to fuel their own. and of course there is much more of this going on in bygone era's the stronger imbalance the more war and death, the more energies released, it is not just a supporting wind, the dark side is rife, it is not a case of individual power, rather the conditions for the ability to be successful, Plagueis is not in a position to be draining powerful Jedi to extend his life

Darthor wrote:
2. Plagueis then noted the counter-argument that they used sorcery for this, but stated that sorcery is for other stuff, indicating that the reason for their success is ONE OF THE 2 CHOICES HE GAVE AND NOT SORCERY You seem to be using Plagueis refuting of a counter-argument of the Ancient's superiority as explicit proof that they aren't superior lol.
Sure I agree, it is one of the two options, and EVERYTHING we have points to option 2, especially when considering all the force growth and Plag GOAT stuff in the Plag Novel, as for the part about sorcery, drain itself is an ability that falls under sorcery, the dark lords used it LESS for draining and extending life, more for doing cool tricks like illusions etc, but the point I am making there is that the users of sorcery are put below Bane there, which I’ll expand on in the next paragraph cos I see you addressed it

This concedes your entire case*, because you were literally using the (alleged) superior force energies during Hoth's time to substantiate his superiority, but you deny the same arguments for the Ancients. To be clear, versus debates are taking each character living during the era they lived in within the Star Wars chronology, so Naga Sadow during the Ancients Empire is the only Sadow we care about. We don't care about a hypothetical Sadow living in the PT era.

If you think the Sadow that is written in TOTJ (living in the TOTJ era) beats the Plagueis in early novel (who's equals to Tenebrous living during his era), then Sadow > Plagueis from a power level perspective. Otherwise, your entire growing well of energy argument goes out of the window.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 8

You keep saying that the second option is correct, but both correct are the same on a power level perspective. Sadow is superior to Tenebrous.

Anyways, Ant already debunked this argument in the blog that I cited:

Darthant66 wrote:
However, Plagueis' "the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras" second option is an irrelevant distinction for us debaters. In most Star Wars eras, the galactic Force is unbalanced and subsumed in the dark side; the galaxy is a mega dark side nexus. For example: "In the Legacy era, there is no balance to the Force. Instead, the dark side of the Force holds sway, and the influence of evil can be felt everywhere" (Star Wars Legacy Campaign Guide). There is no way for us to separate the One Sith's showings from the all-present dark side, so we bake it into the cake of our analysis. We even attribute these shifts in the galactic Force—such as when Plagueis and Palpatine tilted it to the dark side, or when Order 66 further empowered Anakin and Palpatine—as permanent increases in the Force user's raw power. Ergo, regardless of whether the ancient Sith were more powerful than Plagueis due to inherent or galactic factors, they are clear-cut more powerful as it relates to versus debating.

Ant is not an official source, but this argument is a valid argument based on official source material. I referenced the blog because it is simpler than me making the argument all by myself again. You still have the burden to respond to it
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